I have been dialoging with Muslims over here at Paul Williams blog who also happened to link to Bassam Zawadi's on the subject here
To continue my latest reply. Sam1528: you quoted:
"Al Qaasim said that Al Hussain said that Hujjaaj said on the authority of Ibn Jurayj: He made victorious those who followed you (Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him) with Islam over those that disbelieved until the Day of Judgment. (Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, Jami’ al-bayan fi ta’wil al-Qur’an, Commentary on Surah 3:55, Source)…’"And said:
"It refers to muslims. That is why I asked you for the definition of a ‘muslim’. A question you have been sidestepping."No one is disputing the believers who accepted Jesus were Muslims in the sense of submitting to the will of God. The problem with the provided commentary here is that it simply contradicts the verse. The commentary asserts "those who followed YOU" here refers to Mohammed and Islam.
A simply reading of the passage shows how that is impossible:
(Remember) when the angels said: "O Maryam (Mary)! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and he was! i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary)] from Him, his name will be the Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah." "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous." URL She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is. And He (Allah) will teach him ['Iesa (Jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger TO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (saying): "I have come TO YOU with a sign from YOUR LORD, that I design FOR YOU out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform YOU of what YOU eat, and what YOU store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign FOR YOU, if YOU believe. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful TO YOU part of what was forbidden TO YOU, and I have come TO YOU with a proof from YOUR Lord. So fear Allah and obey me. Truly! Allah is my Lord and YOUR Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path. Then when 'Iesa (Jesus) came to know of THEIR DISBELIEF, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allah's Cause?" Al-Hawariun (the disciples) said: "WE are the helpers of Allah; WE believe in Allah, and bear witness that WE are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah)." OUR Lord! We believe in what YOU have sent down, and WE follow the Messenger ['Iesa (Jesus)]; so write US down among those who bear witness. And THEY (DISBELIEVERS) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners. And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and CLEAR YOU of THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE, and I will make THOSE who FOLLOW YOU superior to THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." 3:45-55It is therefore shown in context to be indisputable that every pronoun in the passage excluding the ones applied to Jesus, refer to the children of Israel (those who disbelived and believed).
If as you suggest "those will follow you" refers to Mohammed, then "and CLEAR YOU of THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE" must also refer to Mohammed.
But contextually verse 54-55 clarifies that it is Jesus being cleared from the disbelievers: "And THEY (DISBELIEVERS) plotted [to kill 'Iesa (Jesus)], and Allah planned too. And Allah is the Best of the planners".
It is therefore clear that the pronouns in verse 3:55 apply at first to the children of Israel who disbelievers, and then to the believers.
A fact Zawadi admits himself:
"so to say that its referring to the Christians of today is false and only an assumption when analyzing the verse BY ITSELF."Contextually the verse refers to Israelite Believers in Jesus proclaiming how they will be dominant until the day of Resurrection. And as the Quran is the best Tafsir of itself before all external sources, the other commentaries that contradict the Quran must be rejected over the supreme exegesis of the Quran.
Further our argument is (and alway has been)
- The Quran confirms Pauline Christianity (indirectly) by confirming the true sect of the first century followers of Jesus will be dominate until the day of ressurection
- The Quran contradicts Pauline Christianity (directly)
- Therefore the Quran is false
But notice how circular Zawadi's reasoning is:
"But if we look at the overall teachings of Islam and see how it clearly goes against the teachings of Pauline Christianity WE SEE THAT IT CANNOT BE REFERRING TO THE CHRISTIANS OF TODAY. "Yet this is the very issue being contested! Maybe whilst the Quran confirms Pauline Christianity because of the authors ignorance, the Quran on the other hand contradicts this, proving the Quran cannot be from God.
Talk about blatant circular reasoning. In other words he rules out a contradiction at the BEGINNING. When that is the very issue at hand!
Zawadi also makes another candid admission:
"So it could also be referring to the original followers of Jesus during his time."It has to be if context, grammar, and syntax mean anything. In fact what grammatical peculiarity would allow Mohammed to be the pronoun of any object or referent in 3:55 or through the entire passage! Remember a pronoun is a substitute for a "noun", and nouns are defined by context. In this case "children of Israel(vs 49)" was identified as the noun, and the pronouns all follow up from here.
Zawadi goes on:
"The reason why they will be superior is because Islam has come to make known that those people who truly followed Prophet Jesus peace be upon him are those who will be going to heaven and thus they are honored in this life."This explanation however is contradicted by the verse itself:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will MAKE those who follow THEE SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESSURECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."Note "MAKE SUPERIOR" is connected to "until the day of ressurection". It is thus not referring to the afterlife, but an earthly blessing.
Further more Zawadi records from Tabari:
"Those that believed from Bani Israel and other than them. "This is because the original followers of Jesus passed on their faith. And that of course is the faith that remains dominant until the day of the Lord. But only one faith fits that description. That is Pauline Christianity.
Zawadi then continues to cite commentaries that make obscure, the plain meaning of the text:
"Ibn Abbas said: Allah strengthened those who believed in the time of Jesus BY HAVING Muhammad's religion be uppermost over the religion of the disbelievers. (Abu 'Abdullah Al-Qurtubi, Tasfir al Jami' li-ahkam al-Qur'an, Commentary on Surah 61:14, Source)"This is a complete non-sequitor. Allah strengthed believers at the time of jesus, by having another prophet come 600 years afterward and be dominant over the disbelievers in his time?
Sam1527 asked me: "Why are you arguing that the verses address ONLY the contemporaries of Prophet Jesus(as)? "
I do not believe I said this. You ought to reread what I have said:
"2) The original followers of Jesus from the time of Jesus until now, still exist and are successful and will continue to remain until the day of Resurrection"Another narration that Fares quoted said:
"Ibrahim said: It became established that the sect that believed in Jesus was uppermost by the confirmation of Muhammad peace be upon him and Jesus is the word of Allah and His spirit. (Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Tafsir al-Kabir, Commentary on Surah 61:14)"Yet this explanation wont work either as "MAKE DOMINAT "UNTIL the day of ressurection" shows that they woudn't have been dominant from the time of Jesus, until the time of Mohammed, since there was no Mohammed for them to accept. Yet Fares clearly misses the context, Allah is causing them to be dominant for the BELIEF IN JESUS, not for there so-called believe in Mohammed:
"Then when 'Iesa (Jesus) came to know of THEIR DISBELIEF, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allah's Cause?" Al-Hawariun (the disciples) said: "WE ARE THE HELPERS OF ALLAH; WE BELIEVE IN ALLAH, and bear witness that WE are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah)." OUR Lord! We believe in what YOU have sent down, and WE follow the Messenger ['Iesa (Jesus)]; so write US down among those who bear witness. "It is clear in context they are made superior and blessed by Allah as a reward for belief in Jesus.
Finally, Muslims have found it incredibly difficult to be honest about verse 3:55, but many Muslims have had to concede this includes Christians (e.g. Pauline Christianity):
Maududi:
"Those who follow" him are really the Muslims only but if it may be taken to imply all those who believe in him, then THE SINCERE CHRISTIANS may also be included."He further says:
"Here are the late S. Abu Al’a Maududi’s comments on S. 61:14:... Those who disbelieved in Jesus Christ are the Jews, and those who believed him are the Christians as well as the Muslims, and Allah granted them domination over the disbelievers of Christ. This is meant to requires [sic] the Muslims that just as the believers of Christ have dominated over his disbelievers in the past, so will the believers of the Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace) prevail over disbelievers. (Meaning of the Qur’an, Volume V, english rendering by A.A. Kamal, M.A. [Islamic Publications (Pvt.) Limited, 13-E, Shahalam Market, Lahore-8 Pakistan], p. 516, fn. 21)Al-Jalalayn said:
" and I am setting those who follow you, THOSE CHRISTIANS and Muslims who BELIEVED IN YOUR PROPHETHOOD, above those who disbelieved, in you, namely, the Jews, becoming above them through [definitive] argument and the sword, until the Day of Resurrection."Ibn Kathir candidly admits:
"So the religion of ‘Isa became the religion of Constantine, who built more than twelve thousand churches, temples and monasteries for the Christians as well as the city that bears his name, Constantinople (Istanbul). THROUGHOUT THIS TIME, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews. ALLAH AIDED THEM AGAINST THE JEWS BECAUSE THEY USED TO BE CLOSER TO THE TRUTH THAN THE JEWS, even though both groups were and still are disbelievers, may Allah’s curse descend on them." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged), Volume 2, Parts 3, 4, & 5 (Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, Verse 147), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 171"Yusuf Ali, puts his it best in his translation
The Holy Qur’an - Text and Commentary, p. 1543, footnote 5448, states: "A portion of the Children of Israel - the ones that really cared for Truth - believed in Jesus and followed his guidance. But the greater portion of them were hard-hearted, and remained in their beaten track of formalism and false racial pride. The majority seemed at first to have the upper hand when they thought they had crucified Jesus and killed his Message. But they were soon brought to their senses. Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus in A.D. 70 and the Jews have been scattered ever since. "The Wandering Jew" has become a bye-word in many literatures. On the other hand, those who followed Jesus PERMEATED the Roman Empire, brought many new races within their circle, and through the Roman Empire, Christianity became the predominant religion of the world until the advent of Islam ...Read here, for more references.
It is thus time to stop appealing to commentaries that contradict one another and explicitly contradict the direct reading of Allah's word, the Quran. The argument has been same from the start. The Quran asserts the followers of Jesus from the time of Jesus to the time of the Resurrection will prevail and be dominant. What sect of Christianity beginning at the time of Jesus has not only survived, but prevailed and remained dominant over all other sects claiming to follow Jesus? As history testifies and the above Muslims admit "the Christians". This means the Quran indirectly confirms Pauline Christianity. Allah is the cause of Pauline Christianity remaining dominant and successful, he is rewarding the Jewish and Gentile Pauline Christians for there belief in Jesus, from the moment Jesus called upon them to believe in him!
UPDATE
Sam1528 attempted a response. I will try to reflect on any new material he contributes.
Firstly, begging the question and implying that Paul hallucinated is fallacious. One could simply brush aside Mohammed's visions in the same way, but that wouldn't do justice to either Paul or Mohammed. Further more there is ample of evidence demonstrating Paul had a real vision and a genuine experience with the Risen Christ. The Hallucination Hypothesis is quite outdated and simply is not the best explanation of all the facts, as easily dispelled by WLC over here.
Sam1528 continues:
" Therefore , technically how in the word do you consider Pauline Christians to be the followers of Prophet Jesus(as)? The big question here : When did Paul met , walked and talked with Prophet Jesus(as) , learned from and followed him? If the answer is never – how in the world can you claim Pauline Christians to be followers of Prophet Jesus(as) hence Christians? Your argument is already flawed from the very beginning. Are you not aware of this?"And:
"However you kind of forgot how in the world can Pauline Christians be followers of Prophet Jesus(as) as Paul never met , walked nor talked with Prophet Jesus(as). Therefore Paul did not learn anything from Prophet Jesus(as)."This is utterly damning if the criterion to be a follower of Jesus is having met Jesus on earth at least once before his death, then neither contemporary Christians or Muslims can be followers of Jesus. But most importantly Mohammed himself could not have been a follower of Jesus. When you have to apply standards that undermine your own faith you might as well abandon your faith as irrational as it debunks your own religion.
But of course Christians and Historians don't apply such ludicrous reasoning, they actually think rationally. Paul was a second generation follower of Jesus, who not only engaged by Jesus in a vision, but after this vision Paul encountered Barnabas, but then meditated in Arabia, later he came back to Jerusalem where he was extended the right hand of fellowship by the very disciples of Jesus themselves! The Original Apostles confirmed Paul’s Gospel and Apostleship and my own semi-related is found here
Okay I had a read over the rest my Sam1528 responses, and although I don't see anything worth addressing, I will let each reader decide for themselves if they think his final points are potent. I will quote the rest of his words in the spirit of fairness and give him the closing remarks:
"You are again making your own determination of what success is with regards to the part verse :’…AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED…’. I would not repeat what I stated in my last argument. You should have understood that ‘the ones that prevailed’ are the successful ones from Allah standpoint , not yours , meaning they are successful in life and death as they retained their faith in Allah.
If you care to read carefully , per your (and Answering Islam) references to Maududi , Jalalayn , Yusuf Ali. The bit part tafseers state of the following
- those who followed the guidance of Prophet Isa(as)
- those who believe in the Prophethood Of Prophet Jesus(as)
- the ones who cared for the truth.
For your info , we muslims believe that the then people who acknowledged the prophethood and follow the guidance Prophet Jesus(as) were muslims meaning them being true believers. In addition , all 3 tafseers stated that muslims would be the ones prevailing. That I thank you. The citation of Ibn Kathir is just a red herring. It does not even address Quran3:55 nor Quran61:14.
You have just demonstrated that your argument is based on a silly assumption that since Pauline Christianity has been the dominant group therefore Quran3:55 / 61:14 addresses them...
Adding insult to injury , the 3 tafseers that you (Answering Islam) appealed to confirm that muslims would be the ones to prevail. What can I say except thanking you for your indirect support.
Ha ha , the Answering Islam article is a flawed article. You in appealing blindly to it makes your argument a flawed argument. I am advising you again – its time for you to move on from Answering Islam and employ a bit of critical thinking on your part. Assumptions is the mother of all screw ups."
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