Does Jesus fulfill the criteria of being Deity according to the Qur'an?

A while back, Sam Shamoun wrote an article concerning Jesus deity according to the standard set forth by Islamic sources, namely the Quran. Predictably, one Muslim apologist Sami Zaatari had an attempt at damage control. As per usual, these sub-par "responses" only seem to highlight even more egregious errrors than I could of possibly imagined.

I recommend reading both articles before continuing. 

Before I address Zaatari, I will go over the basics of the original argument:

According to the Quran, false gods, namely what the pagans reckon to be "partners" of Allah, cannot, create, resurrect, give or control life:

Is He then Who creates like him who does not create? Do you not then mind?... And those whom they call on besides Allah have not created anything while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised. S. 16:17, 20-21 Shakir

And they have taken besides Him gods, who do not create anything while they are themselves created, and they control not for themselves any harm or profit, and they control not death nor life, nor raising (the dead) to life. S. 25:3 Shakir

These attributes therefore belong to God alone. Yet if these attributes belong to God alone, how are Jesus (and other figures in the Qur'an) able to perform these functions unless they too are God?

As pointed out by Shamoun in his article:

And he shall be a prophet to the people of Israel (saying), that I have come to you, with a sign from God, namely, that I will CREATE for you out of clay (annee AKHLUQU lakum mina ALTTEENI) as though it were the form of a bird, and I will blow thereon and it shall become a bird by God's permission; and I will heal the blind from birth, and lepers; and I will bring the dead to life by God's permission; and I will tell you what you eat and what ye store up in your houses. Verily, in that is a sign for you if ye be believers. S. 3:49 Palmer

When God shall say, O Jesus son of Mary, remember my favour towards thee, and towards thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, that thou shouldest speak unto men in the cradle, and when thou wast grown up; and when I taught thee the scripture, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel; and when thou didst CREATE of clay (wa-ith TAKHLUQU mina ALTTEENI) as it were the figure of a bird, by my permission, and didst breathe thereon, and it became a bird by my permission; and thou didst heal one blind from his birth, and the leper, by my permission; and when thou didst bring forth the dead [from their graves], by my permission; and when I with-held the children of Israel from [killing] thee, when thou hadst come unto them with evident [miracles], and such of them as believed not, said, this is nothing but manifest sorcery. S. 5:110 Sale 

These two passages demonstrate that Christ has the breath of life and can create in exactly the same way God creates: 

HE it is Who created you from clay (Huwa allathee KHALAQAKUM min TEENIN) and then HE decreed a term. And there is another term fixed with HIM. Yet you doubt. S. 6:2 Y. Ali  

Note the connection between God breathing his Spirit into man with Christ being strengthened with the Holy Spirit, breathing life into clay birds and resurrecting the dead. And also notice that Christ created a living bird from clay just as God created man from clay. These passages therefore teach that Christ had the same life-giving Spirit of God!

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay (innee KHALIQUN basharan min TEENIN): When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S. 38:71-72 Y. Ali

And also:

"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought." S. 22:73

Even though Jesus didn't create a fly, he did create a bird and breathed life into it just as Allah did to Adam!

The syllogism is as follows:

1. God alone creates, resurrects, give and controls life (in Islam)
2. Jesus creates, resurrects, gives and controls life (in Islam)
3. Therefore Jesus is God alone

However what Muslims expect us to believe is:

1. God alone creates, resurrects give and controls life (in Islam)
2. Jesus creates, resurrects, gives and controls life as given by the power of God (in Islam)

Already this is an invalid argument. The second premise does not follow the first premise. If God alone performs these functions, then 2 does not follow from 1 since God alone is capable of creation, Resurrection, giving and controlling life, and no one else is capable of such functions.

Zaatari contradicts himself several other times in his article. He is quite happy in some places to admit that Jesus performed these miracles himself by the power given to him from God, he admits that God in fact indeed gave Jesus these powers credited to him. While on the other hand Zaatari says Jesus is not the one performing these miracles with these powers, since in-fact God is performing these miracles and no one else.

KEY

Definitions

Monergistic framework: the doctrine that God acts independently of the human ability/power in the work of miracles. While humans (especially prophets) may pray to God for a miracle, God is solely responsible for orchestrating, conducting and performing the miracle, the miracle is performed by God alone, even if a human requests God for divine assistance or it is said "Bob, then raised him from the dead", a human has no innate powers/abilities given to him/her by God, and therefore God rose him from the dead, because that was his will, and God simply pressed God's heart to pray for this miracle.

Synergistic framework: God and man(especially prophets) acting and working together (with miracles) in a creative,innovative, and productive manner. God endows an agent with power, and together they perform the miracle, or if the agent performs the miracle by himself it is because ultimately God has given him this power.

The black text highlights (monergistic exegesis) where Zaatari clearly admits Jesus did not perform the miracle, it was Allah alone who performed the miracle, Jesus was passive.

The red emboldened text (synergistic exegesis) shows where Zaatari admits Jesus did perform the miracle together with Allah using the power Allah gave him, the red statements show a partnership between Allah and Jesus:

Those very words there refute Shamoun’s entire argument. Note that even before Jesus performs the miracle he says that IT IS FROM GOD. How can Shamoun miss that? Before Jesus performs the great miracle he makes sure to tell everybody it’s not really him doing it! 

Now also note the verses say that all this happens by Allah’s permission. So not only is Allah giving this miracle to Jesus, he is allowing the miracle to work, so hence Jesus really is not doing anything. This once again does not contradict the earlier verses at all, since Allah ALONE does what he wills, and he doesn’t need no permission or help from anybody else. Allah is independent, as we see Jesus is not, he is completely dependant on Allah for all the miracles he has. Had Jesus performed the miracle on his own, without any one else’s permission, then the Christians would have a case. 

As for Christ having a life giving spirit, this is just nonsense on Shamoun’s part, the verse says things become alive by Jesus only by Allah’s permission, hence it is not really Jesus who is giving life it is Allah, put this with the fact that Allah is giving Jesus this power. 

I will explicitly emphasize the contradiction in this last paragraph even further:

1. Things do come alive by Jesus (with the permission of Allah)
2. Things do not come alive by Jesus, since it is only Allah

Zaatari continues:

Shamoun has no case or argument. Jesus’ breath doesn’t give life, it is Allah’s will and power that allows Jesus’ breath to give life, Shamoun seems to forget this. 

Again we have:

1. Jesus breath does not give life (since Allah alone gives life) vs
2. Jesus breath does give life (by Allah's permission)

Thus Zaatari clearly needs to make up his mind. Does he believe Allah gives his power to Jesus, and then Allah and Jesus work together to create life, or does he believe Jesus is an inactive, passive participant who really does not "share" or get "involved" in the function of giving life with Allah, since Allah alone gives life?

Further, clearly Zaatari has mistaken Allah's permission (consent), with Allah's power, more on this later.

Zaatari goes on to say:

The same is for Jesus, he cannot create a single thing on his own, the only way Jesus could create is because Allah GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN, and that my friend is a completely different issue. 

This text clearly shows a partnership between Allah and Jesus. Although Jesus was originally powerless to create anything by himself (according to Zaatari), Allah gave him the powers he needed to create life and in this sense Allah is ultimately responsible for giving life through Jesus, since he gives his prophet the ability to give life this means Jesus is Allah's life giving agent! Funnily enough this is exactly what the Arab pagans believe about Allah's partners! Allah enabled them to create life with the powers he endowed to them.

In response to Shamoun Zaatari says:

(Shamoun): Why would God grant Jesus the abilities and characteristics of Deity? 

(Zaatari): God gave those miracles and power to Jesus to prove to the people that there is God, Jesus himself said the miracle he has is from God, so hence these great things were given to Jesus to prove that there is greater being out there who is God.

Rather than objecting to the fact that Jesus has the abilities and characteristics of Deity, Zaatari admits that God gave these miracles and powers to Jesus, empirically proving a partnership between God and Jesus.

Yet the very next sentence Zaatari contradicts himself :

(Shamoun): Why is God permitting Jesus to perfectly fit the description and fulfill the criteria which places one within the category of God? 

(Zaatari): Actually this is not true, God creates by himself, he needs no help or permission, Jesus did not do anything or have anything by himself, --->>

(Derek Adams interjection): At this point I have to wonder if Zaatari even read the question? The question doesn't say ""Why is Jesus able to by himself perferctly fit the description...", but rather assumes God grants him these abilities. Shamoun indicates this by saying "Why is God permitting Jesus to..." 

(Zaatari): Allah gave him the miracle and allowed the miracle to work hence Jesus really didn’t do anything. Jesus would fit the criteria of God if Jesus did it alone, needed no permission and so on, he however fails all this.

So Zaatari while assuming in response to Shamoun's question that God can and does give the attributes and characteristics of deity to Jesus (as Zaatari calls it: God gave him the miracles and power) then goes on to try to deny this by saying "Well since God gave him all these powers, Jesus did not do anything".

But what does Zaatari mean when he says Jesus did not do anything? His own explanation seems to suggest "Jesus doing nothing" really means (in my wording):

"It's not that Jesus wasn't involved in the creation process or that he wasn't an active participant, it's that he didn't initiate these powers by himself of his own accord, he was endowed with these powers and utterly and completely dependent on God".

If this is what Zaatari is attempting to say then we must ask the question again, since Zaatari agrees with the premise of the question (that God permits such abilities to Jesus):

 Why is God permitting Jesus to perfectly fit the description and fulfill the criteria which places one within the category of God?

Now I must say it is odd that Zaatari grants that God granted Jesus the abilities and characteristics of deity by saying this is a requirement for supernatural evidence of God, but then negates that Jesus perfectly fits the description and fulfills the criterion set forth by the Qur'an. So which of the two answers is it?

Further more, Zaatari in his monogersitic intepretation of the Quran, says that Allah giving or granting or permitting human beings certain functions means they really didn't do these functions. Of course if we applied this sort of absurd reasoning to everyday constructions or even theology, Zaatari would be laughed out of the Mosque. For example lets rephrase some of Zaatari's statements:

"God gave Sami the power to walk and allowed the walking to work hence Sami really didn’t do anything."

While the first part of the sentence in black is true, the latter half in red is clearly false, Sami did indeed walk whether he was given the ability or not! This is of course unless you are a hard-determinist, hyper-calvinist or Islamic predeterminist (as opposed to soft determinist/compatiabilist, free will etc). But presumably Sami accepts human responsibility and free will, hence Sami's desperate attempt at claiming Jesus really didn't perform this function is as utterly false as me saying: "Sami didn't sign on the internet, it was God who gave him the internet and the power to sign on the internet! Therefore Sami didn't sign in on the internet!".

Two words: Utterly fallacious.

As for Zaatari's last bogus argument that Jesus does not meet the Quranic criterion of deity since Jesus needs permission for his miracles and Allah does not, Zaatari seems to have missed a clear and easy objection. He has falsely equated "permission" with "ability and power". However simply receiving consent to perform a task does not enable a person to have the ability to perform that task.

Further more, the reason why God grants Jesus permission is clearly because Jesus works together with God in perfect union and abides by the will of God, as Shamoun adds:

the Quranic expression simply implies that Christ only exercised his divine prerogatives in accordance with the decree of God, never acting on his own behest or initiative.

But furthermore if Zaatari just rereads the texts we have cited, he will notice the idea that the Qur'an is not rebuking the pagans and their deities because they deny God gave their deities powers to create and rather they accept, that their pagan deities have their own unique powers independent of Allah.

Rather the pagans ironically agree with Zaatari, that all power and abilities come from Allah, and the Quran seeks not to refute the pagans by saying "Hang on, you say your powers come from the deities themselves, but really their powers come from Allah who gave them to your gods". No rather the elephant in the room, standing and sitting on top of Zaatari's face is the fact, that the Quran is asserting, these gods don't have any power whatsoever whether from themselves or given to them by Allah:

Is He then Who creates like him who does not create? Do you not then mind?... And those whom they call on besides Allah have not CREATED ANYTHING while they are themselves created; Dead (are they), not living, and they know not when they shall be raised. S. 16:17, 20-21 Shakir

And they have taken besides Him gods, who DO NOT CREATE ANYTHING while they are themselves created, and they control not for themselves any harm or profit, and they control not death nor life, nor raising (the dead) to life. S. 25:3 Shakir

"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought." S. 22:73

In another attempt at damage control Zaatari proclaims:

Anyone who knows how to read and understand properly will see the verse Shamoun puts up means that no one can create anything by themselves.The verse basically means that their supposed God’s cannot create a single thing, they cannot create in the sense to create life, death etc. The same is for Jesus, he cannot create a single thing on his own, the only way Jesus could create is because Allah GAVE HIM THAT POWER AND ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN

Suppose we accepted Zaataris eisegesis, here is what we would to believe the text says:

"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah cannot create (by themselves without Allah, even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it (themselves without Allah) from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought." S. 22:73

In other words, if Zaatari is right, the Quran is teaching if these pagan deities were actually completely dependent upon Allah, they could indeed come together and create a fly. But is this the real meaning of the passage? Is the author of the Quran trying to suggest these false gods whom the pagan arabs believe in are real entities whom if they only surrended to God's will, he would grant them these abilities? Well Zaatari clearly hasn't thought about his own distortion of his Qur'an. 

The Qur'an is not arguing these pagan deities are real deities and like Jesus they cannot operate on their own but require special permission to create given to them by God. Rather the Qur'an is transparently clear in what it is attempting to establish:

1) No creation can create anything because by it's very definition it is a creation, as opposed to a creator.."they do not create anything while they themselves are created" (There is a single creator who is said to have created everything, all else by default exists in the creation category) 

2) The deities pagans called upon were merely creations and therefore by ipso de facto could never have created anything

Further more, Zaatari seems to forget the pagan deities were represented by symbolic representations formed in the shape of an idol, and the deities were said to inhabit these idols. The deities were not independent of Allah, but rather co-dependent or interdependent upon Allah:

The ancient Arabs, however, at the same time believed in the existence of a Supreme God, whom they called Allah. But this belief was rather vague and their faith in Him was correspondingly weak. They might invoke Allah in time of danger, but as soon as the danger was over they forgot all about Him. They also recognized and worshipped a large number of other subordinate gods along with Him, or at least thought that they would inter­cede for them with Him. Three deities in particular, viz., al‑`Uzza, al‑Manat, and al‑Lat, were accorded special veneration as the daughters of Allah. It was this association of subordinate deities with Allah which is technically known as shirk (association of gods with Allah) and which was condemned by the Prophet as an unpardonable sin. Shirk was held in special abhorrence, as it obscured belief in the oneness of God. (Pre Islamic Arabian Chapter 6 Thought by Shaikh Inayatullah , M.A Ph.D., Formerly, Professor of Arabic, University of the Panjab, Lahore, Pakistan: Source)

In Quran 25:3 , famous commentator Ibn Kathir says:

Allah tells us of the ignorance of the idolators in taking other gods instead of Allah, the Creator of all things, the One Who controls the affairs of all things; whatever He wills happens and whatever He does not will does not happen. In spite of that, they still worshipped others besides Him, idols who could not even create the wing of a gnat, but were themselves created. They could neither do harm nor bring benefit to themselves, so how could they do anything for their worshippers  (and possess no power (of causing) death, nor (of giving) life, nor of raising the dead.) means, they could not do any of that at all; that power belongs only to Allah, Who is the One Who gives life and death, and is the One Who will bring all people, the first and the last, back to life on the Day of Resurrection. (source)

And Ibn Abbas says:

(Yet they) the disbelievers of Mecca: Abu Jahl and his host (choose) to worship (beside Him) beside Allah (other gods who create naught) who are unable to create anything (but are themselves created) while their deities, i.e. idols, are created and carved, (and possess) the idols (not hurt) driving away harm (nor profit) nor obtaining profit (for themselves) or for anyone else, (and possess not death) they have no ability to diminish one's life (nor life) nor to increase one's life; it is also said that this means: they are unable to create a sperm drop nor to place therein the spirit, (nor power to raise the dead) after they die.

Because only Jesus and Allah (and Jibreel) can place the spirit therein!

Speaking of 25:3, Maududi asserts:

Another translation may be: "To Him belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth." That is, He alone has an exclusive right to it, and no one else has any right to it nor any share in it.

That is, "He has neither any relation of direct parenthood to anyone, nor has He taken anyone as a son. Therefore, none else in the universe is entitled to worship. He is Unique and there can be no partner in His Godhead. Thus all those who

associate

 with Him angels or jinns or saints as His offspring, are ignorant. Likewise, those who believe that some one, is His "son", are also ignorant. They have no true conception of the Greatness of Allah and consider Him to be weak and needy like human beings, who require some one to become their inheritor. It is sheer ignorance and folly." For further details, see E.N.'s 66 to G8 of Surah Yunus .

The Arabic word mulk means Sovereignty, Supreme Authority, and Kingship. Thus the sentence will mean: "Allah is the Absolute Ruler of the whole universe and there is none other who may have any right to authority; therefore He alone is God." For whenever a man takes anything else as his lord, he does so under the presumption that his deity has the power to do good or bring harm and make or mar his fortune; nobody will like to worship a powerless deity. Now when it is recognized that none but Allah has the real power and authority in the universe, nobody will bow before anyone other than Him in worship, nor will sing anybody else's hymns, nor commit the folly of bowing in worship before any thing else except his real God, or recognize any other as his ruler, because "To Allah belongs the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and to Him alone."

There may be other translations of this also: "He has ordained it in due proportion"; or "He has appointed an exact measure for everything." But no translation can convey its real meaning, which is: "Allah has not only created everything in the universe but also determined its shape, size, potentialities, characteristics, term of existence, the limitations and extent of its development and all other things concerning it. Then, He has created the means and provisions to enable it to function properly in its own separate sphere."

This is one of the most comprehensive verses of the Qur'an with regard to the Doctrine of Tauhid. According to Traditions, the Holy Prophet himself taught this verse to every child of his family as soon as it was able to speak and utter a few words. Thus, this verse is the best means of impressing the Doctrine of Tauhid on our minds, and every Muslim should use it for educating his children as soon as they develop understanding.

The words are comprehensive and cover all the false gods whom the mushriks worship whether they are angels, jinns, Prophets, saints, the sun, the moon, the stars, trees, rivers, animals etc., which have been created by Allah, or those which have been created by man, as the idols of stone, wood, etc.

That is, "Allah has sent down Al-Furqan on His servant so that he may invite the people to the Truth, which they have forsaken due to heedlessness and waywardness, and warn them of the evil consequences of their folly. The Furqan is being revealed piecemeal so that he may distinguish right from wrong and the genuine from the counterfeit."

It is important to notice this verse is not merely meant to be applied to pagan idols, meaning they do not have the attribute of Sovereignty or share in it, but this extends to all of the creation including all of the prophets.

It is therefore unequivocally clear if we read this verse with Jesus (a prophet) in mind it would make no sense:

And they (including Christians) have taken besides Him gods (including JESUS), who do not create anything (contradiction) while they (inc: JESUS) are themselves created, and they (JESUS) control not for themselves any harm or profit(contradiction), and they control not death nor life (contradiction), nor raising (the dead) to life (contradiction). S. 25:3 Shakir

Since Shamoun has already posted all the New Testament evidence in the above article (at the top), specifically the statements of Jesus in the gospel where he claims ALL of these abilities, it is therefore true to say Jesus meets the criterion of Islamic deity perfectly when we judge the New Testament by what constitutes deity in the Qur'an. It is also correct to say the Quran itself contains inconsistencies in itself on these issues since it condemns and rebukes people for taking created beings as deities who can create(with Allah's permission), when the Quran itself asserts the very prophet whom Christian believes is a deity, did create, control and resurrect (with Allah's permission).

If Muslims assert that Jesus must work together with the Father and rely on him, we must say the same about the pagan deities who were also subordinate to Allah (in the belief system of pagans), but even so, Allah rebukes them for believing they could create anything at all. In other words, whether a deity has permission or possesses self-initiative is nothing but a red herring helping Zaatari sleep at night, but now the nightmare has come for him.

In conclusion then:

1. God alone creates life and does not delegate this responsibility to any other agent, since he alone is sovereign
2. Jesus creates life (and cannot possibly be merely a recipient since God does not give away his sovereignty or the attributes and/or powers associated with it)
3. Therefore Jesus is God

To my friends, if I have missed anything, it's late at night, so please supplement the article in the comment section if required.

God cannot become and/or enter his creation? Text debate with Muslim4life

Muslim4life is a young Muslim male chatter who thinks Islam is monotheistic, rational, coherent and logical, while Christianity is paganism, shirk, idolatry, illogical and contradictory. I think although he get's loud and aggressive and passionate on the mic (just like I do), he is a pretty respectful Muslim and probably a sincere truth seeker. Because he is young he has not studied these issues enough and depends on what he calls "scholars/apologists", which is a grave error and mistake, since these so called intellects are not great thinkers at all and if they were they would have abandoned some of their more inconsistent arguments against Christianity.

So far I believe that there is nothing inherently illogical about God becoming a creation known as the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation. When Christians say this is a mystery, they don't mean it goes against reason, all they mean is we cannot explain all the elements of God's incarnation process, for e.g. we cannot explain all the elements of how God created the universe, or how a non-physical being can produce physicality, since the two are opposites, we don't have all the detail.

Without further or do here is our discussion and here is a classic case in point of why Muslims ought to never objection to the doctrine of the Incarnation (on the grounds that Islam has virtually very similar concepts).

Key:

Dk-man7 = Derek Adams (me)

muslim4life: come in the ac room

muslim4life: companion is here

muslim4life: or are u scared

muslim4life: ?

Dk-man7: i told you earlier

Dk-man7: i've known companion for years

Dk-man7: am not interested

muslim4life: lets see if ur claims stand now

muslim4life: im on the mic

muslim4life: i want to see if ur claims still hold infront of the real muslim debators scholors

Dk-man7: firstly stop spamming me with invites

muslim4life: ok

Dk-man7: secondly you already know the hadith I quoted, so you can quote them to your scholars

muslim4life: but companion is here 2 destroy ur arguments 

muslim4life: yes companion is here

muslim4life: now

Dk-man7: thirdly, I'm not interested in talking with companion or any other admin in that room, because they make up their own version of Islam, the are as useless as Quran only Muslims.

Dk-man7: Thanks

muslim4life: its obvious ur scared

muslim4life: i beg u 2 come in the room

muslim4life: i havent heard companion for ages

Dk-man7: Scared? I've already refuted companion over a dozen times, he is a waste of time. 

Dk-man7: Am not interested at all

muslim4life: hahaha hes ready 4 u

Alert: muslim4life has started their webcam

Alert: muslim4life has  stopped their webcam

Dk-man7: so did you quote the hadith ?

Dk-man7: what was the answer

muslim4life: he answered it 

muslim4life: but ur scared

muslim4life: now

Dk-man7: type it out 

muslim4life: hes ready 4 u

muslim4life: i cant because when he sent it me i crossed it out the pm

Dk-man7: type out his answer, did he say the hadith is fabricated? 

Dk-man7: did he say "House" doesn't mean "House"?

Dk-man7: go ahead

muslim4life: no he didnt

muslim4life: if u come in the room u wil be humilated

muslim4life: by him

muslim4life: hes the tru scholor

muslim4life: lol

Dk-man7: so u dont know his answer, even though he gave u an answer?

muslim4life: he is a true islamic scholor

muslim4life: i dont no the exact words

Dk-man7: you dont need the exact words

muslim4life: it was like 

muslim4life: no the house bit i didnt ask him tht it was allah going into creation

muslim4life: he refuted it

muslim4life: but if u come in room u will no the anwer

muslim4life: answer

muslim4life: but ur fearing

muslim4life: he will crush u 

Dk-man7: okay so what is his rebuttal, to the fact that Allah descends to the lowest of heavens

Dk-man7: go ahead, type it out 

muslim4life: he said   allah desends it doesnt mean hes part of his creation ... it was long but he destroyed u , ur just scared

muslim4life: now the throne thing il ask him tht after

Dk-man7: So Allah is descending to the lowiest heaven, but he is not apart of the creation? So how is he descending inside his creation if he's not apart of it ? 

muslim4life:  u see ur so scared 2 speak 2 him because u no u will be humiliated

muslim4life: if u think ur claims can stand debate me then in the ac room

muslim4life: companion wil just listen

Dk-man7: me and you have already debated this 

Dk-man7: how is he descending inside his creation if he's not apart of it ? 

muslim4life: we will do it again then when ur refuting me then companion will hammer u

Dk-man7: I told you already, I'm not interested in companion or any other admin in that room.

muslim4life: so u can discuss with them

Dk-man7: In fact that room is one of the worst rooms on paltalk in terms of free speech 

Dk-man7: I have no interest at all

Dk-man7: So you said Allah descending to the lowest of heavens, that doesn't make him part of the creation. So then Allah is NOT descending OR he is inside the creation? 

Dk-man7: Islam is the solution is the same bunch of idiots from AC

muslim4life: come in the other room companion is not  a admin

muslim4life: lol

muslim4life: companion is not a admin

Dk-man7: okay you said Allah exists without a place.

Dk-man7: Now if Allah exists without a place, how is he descending from one place to another?

Dk-man7: Ask that on mic to your scholars

muslim4life: noo he can exist without a place

muslim4life: ok

muslim4life: i wil ask tht q

muslim4life: only if u come in the room

Dk-man7: And remember the answer, so you can type it out to me

Dk-man7: summarize the answer in this pm

muslim4life: no

muslim4life: u have 2 come in the room

muslim4life: type the q

Dk-man7: already have

Dk-man7: if Allah exists without a place, how is he descending from one place to another?

muslim4life: he desends the way that suits his majesty 

muslim4life: thts my answer

muslim4life: he gave a answer

muslim4life: he gave a rubish answer

Dk-man7: bingo

Dk-man7: You are a bright kid, you will do well mate 

Dk-man7: The question is not "How he descends" whether it's majestic or not is irrelevant. The question is "how can he descend INSIDE CREATION, if Allah exists without a place?" 

Dk-man7: unless he admits the lowest and highest heavens are eternal

Dk-man7: which contradicts the Quran and Sunnah

muslim4life: i do get the q 

muslim4life: hang on

Dk-man7: lowest heaven = a place inside creation, if Allah can descend inside a place inside creation, from place A to place B, then how does Allah exist without a place? 

Dk-man7: he clearly exists WITH a place 

Dk-man7: meaning he is PART of the creation

muslim4life: answer is

muslim4life: he doesnt exist without a place

muslim4life: he exists in a place

muslim4life: thats a devient belief

muslim4life: hes above the throne

muslim4life: we wont say its a not a place 

Dk-man7: he exists WITH A PLACE, and this place is highest/lowest heaven, which is a created realm.

muslim4life: so thts the answer

muslim4life: he is above the 7th heaven

Dk-man7: so again your God is not only inside the creation, he can move around inside the creation

Dk-man7: no sir 

Dk-man7: let me quote for you

muslim4life: u see ur scared 2 come in the room

Dk-man7: The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

[Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

Dk-man7: every night to the lowest heaven

Dk-man7: your God is not only inside the creation, he can move around inside the creation

muslim4life: yes so wht the point

Dk-man7: the point is your God can enter creation without ceasing to be God

muslim4life: it doesnt mean hes part of his creation

Dk-man7: sure it does, when he goes from A to B, is that not PART of his movement? which is in fact part of the creation?

muslim4life: what ur trying 2 do is throw all these points 2 prove god can become a man

Dk-man7: he sure can 

muslim4life: ok he can but he does godly things 

muslim4life: but it doesnt suit his majesty

Dk-man7: so how is it Godly for God to enter his creation?

Dk-man7: God is the creator yes?

muslim4life: yes

Dk-man7: Okay so the Creator only does Godly things.

muslim4life: yes

Dk-man7: So how is Allah able to enter into creation

Dk-man7: if that is ungodly

Dk-man7: ?

muslim4life: he can go in the creation like move around 

muslim4life: but he doesnt become a man

Dk-man7: so when he goes inside the creation, he takes upon which form?

muslim4life: he can go in his creation with the same form

muslim4life: he can desend

muslim4life: but not like a man

Dk-man7: you just exposed yourself

Dk-man7: he can condescend

muslim4life: ok how

Dk-man7: condescend

Dk-man7: bingo

Dk-man7: so if God can condescend inorder to enter the creation, why can he not condescend as a man inside creation ?

muslim4life: BECAUSE IT DOESNT SUIT HIS MAJESTY BECAUSE IF HE BECOMES A MAN THEN HES NOT GOD ANYMORE AND GOD IS ALWAYS GOD BINGO

muslim4life: ARGUMENT DESTROYED

muslim4life: watch the debate

Dk-man7: That's a false analogy, entering creation, does that mean God DOES NOT EXIST outside the creation?

muslim4life: on u tube

muslim4life: sami zaatari can god become a man

Dk-man7: Are you saying when God enters creation therefore he is NOT outside the creation?

Dk-man7: you are presenting a false analogy even in your own bogus faith

Dk-man7: Allah entering the lowiest heaven, does not mean he does NOT exist above the seventh heaven

muslim4life: he is not like his creation but hes in the earth if he desends on earth

Dk-man7: okay so if he descends on earth, are you saying he is NOT above the throne?

Dk-man7: that would mean you just exposed Islam aswell 

muslim4life: no he can be on the throne and then desend

Dk-man7: can he be above the throne and be in the lowiest heaven simetaneously?

muslim4life: yes 

Dk-man7: thanks

Dk-man7: buried

muslim4life: god can do everything hes all poweful

muslim4life: powerful

muslim4life: lo

Dk-man7: So God being in the lowiest heaven, does not mean he is NOT above the seventh heaven

Dk-man7: you just proved my point

muslim4life: yes 

muslim4life: but ur scared 2 debate companion

Dk-man7: right now that you admit God can enter creation while still existing outside creation, what is your objection?

muslim4life: hmm

muslim4life: u see u wont debate companion

Dk-man7: here's what i'll do just for you

Dk-man7: I will watch Zaatari's debate again, and make a video review of the key points he makes and respond to them and put my response on youtube.

Dk-man7: Now mrdebatethehate has youtube, so you can paste my link to him 

Dk-man7: And he can refute me 

Dk-man7: And it seems you are smart enough to know if his answers are b.s. 

muslim4life: companion

Dk-man7: yes his old name is mrdebatethehate

Dk-man7: i've known him for years

muslim4life: ok send all ur points 2 me

muslim4life: il get them answered

Dk-man7: they are already in this pm 

muslim4life: i crossed it

muslim4life: u give them me now

muslim4life: il get them answered by  a top muslim apologist

muslim4life: so can god everything?

Dk-man7: The top Muslim Apologist is Bassam Zawadi who like you is a Salafi. His answers usually go like this "IN away that befits Allah's majesty"

Dk-man7: "Allah knows best"

muslim4life: yes thts who i am messaging

muslim4life: i think my answers now

muslim4life: will be allah knows best

muslim4life: sami zaatari destroys argument can god become man

muslim4life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hio0uwymQrA

Dk-man7: I'll expose all his errors don't worry

muslim4life: companion has replied

muslim4life: 2 me

muslim4life: now

muslim4life: he said wht does he mean entering creation

Dk-man7: in fact I'll watch his introduction now

muslim4life: wht do u mean

muslim4life: go on

muslim4life just sent you a nudge!

Dk-man7: entering creation is self explanatory

Dk-man7: creation is created by definition it did not always exist

muslim4life: wht do u mean

muslim4life: god is god creation is creation

Dk-man7: which means to "enter" in creation, would mean at one point, you did not exist inside creation

Dk-man7: now pressumably, before Allah created the heavens, he was not descending to the lowest heavens.

Dk-man7: Which means he has to enter creation first

Dk-man7: in order to descend to the lowiest heaven

Dk-man7: That is self explanatory

muslim4life: the creator can not become a creation 

muslim4life: or hes not a creator

muslim4life: argument destroyed

muslim4life: companion is here

muslim4life: ready for u

muslim4life: but ur scared

Dk-man7: The creator entering creation does not mean he didn't create the creation.

Dk-man7: That's a non-sequito

Dk-man7: Doesn't follow

Dk-man7: First Zaatari claim "If God became a man he would no longer be God, that's an oxy moron, that's a contradiction". This pressuposes, that God cannot create a new nature to dwell in as a man, while keeping his original nature, but what argument does he present for this? Okay his follow-up analogy is "If a man became a duck, he would no longer be a man", but this is a false analogy, since we don't claim God merely became a man, but that he took on the body of a man in a new additional nature. This is not transformers, truck or robot (one at a time), since God is not a finite(created being) that transforms from one state into another, that is completely false analogy.

Dk-man7: "Can anyone imagine an all powerful God being such a helpless limited baby", that's just an argument from emotion. I could use the same: "Could anyone imagine the all powerful Allah SITTING upon the throne, how does an all powerful creator SIT upon a created entity? with an ass?"

Dk-man7: So yeah that's just appeal to emotion.

muslim4life: " but DK man knows better, thats why he wont come to our room " companion of quran quote

Dk-man7: since the last time I was there, he dotted me

Dk-man7: am not interested

muslim4life: ok

muslim4life: all ur points he refuted

muslim4life: but tht topic i know nothing about and its important for me 2 learn it

muslim4life: aall these points ur trying 2 prove is god can become a man

Dk-man7: okay if he refuted everything, then you can answer

Dk-man7: Dk-man7: right now that you admit God can enter creation while still existing outside creation, what is your objection?

muslim4life: no i was wrong i dont no if god can enter creation while existing outside we cant q tht

muslim4life: we only use wht the quran says as muslims

muslim4life: im a salafi muslim

muslim4life: allah knows best

muslim4life: lol

muslim4life: thts the BEST

muslim4life: ANSWER

muslim4life: HAHA

Dk-man7: Furthermore, when Allah reveals his Shin, if it's not really HIS SHIN, (meaning it's not his true and real Godly nature in it's fullest sense), then why are Muslims committing idoltary by bowing before it?

Dk-man7: why would they prostrate before Allah's shin?

Dk-man7: if it's not really Allah's shin or if it doesn't really belong to Allah?

Dk-man7: lol Muslim4life lol

Dk-man7: good one

muslim4life: im going now nice talking 2 u 

muslim4life: bye

Dk-man7: byebye

      muslim4life is now offline.

Messages will be delivered when they sign on to Paltalk.

Just in case you missed why I asked the final question. The question was asked since if according to Muslims, If God can enter the creation without becoming creation, then we must ask what Muslims are in fact prostrating to when they prostrate to Allah's shin?

Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:

We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?'

Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’ And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, ‘Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?’ They will say. ‘The Shin,’ and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532)...

We learn various facts from this hadith.

1) Allah can be seen by his servants in the after life, specifically the day of Resurrection and onward
2) Allah can take various shapes and forms and even claim deity in these appearances
3) Allah actually reveals his own Shin to his creatures who prostrate before him

Now presuming that Allah's Shin, is just not merely another one of Allah's forms, then Muslims are prostrating to the actual Shin of Allah meaning Allah has become part of the creation, since they are actually prostrating before his very Shin! We have to admit they cannot be prostrating before Allah's shin from outside the creation, since Allah's servants are not eternal and cannot exist outside time and space.

But lets say that Allah's shin is only one of Allah's visions, forms and appearances. Firstly are these forms, eternal or finite? This hadith indicates Allah changes his form from one form to another: "other than the one which they saw FIRST", this means Allah's forms are not permanent but temporary, and therefore created. But if Allah presenting a created form to his servants (meaning Allah is manipulating created substances) and his servants bow before this created form, is this not idolatry?  When Allah reveals his Shin, if it's not really HIS SHIN, (it's not his true and real Godly nature in it's fullest sense), then why are Muslims committing idolatry by bowing before it?

Richard Dawkins is a bigot for pointing out Muslims don't win Nobel Prizes.

Dawkins can criticize Christianity as ferociously and passionately as he likes, but as soon as he makes one comment about the condition of Muslims/Islam all hell breaks loose, check this out.

Three New Arguments for Muslims

Below I reference some good materials showing the real state of the preservation of the Quran. I am thinking of doing a documentary or a series of videos on this over all issue at some point, I mentioned this last year.

In this post I would like to copy three of my own arguments (that are related to the topic at hand) I seem to have innovated when meditating and debating on this issue. I have only extracted my own words and haven't reformulated these arguments, so you will have to be familiar with the issues to understand.

Argument 1

According to the Quran:

15:9 “Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.”

Now this is a passage in the very Quran itself. Presumably when it says it will protect itself it is not referring to one harf of itself, rather it’s complete self.

If it is referring to itself in the sense of the Quran as it stand s in heaven, then it is only referring to the heavenly Quran being protected, contradicting the Muslim view that the Quran they possess on earth is protected by Allah.

This also creates a divide; there is one Quran in heaven, and one Quran on earth. And only one is being protected.

However if we say that the verse “15:9” is referring to a singular harf then which harf is it referring to? And how we do know which one it means? Then of course this invokes the whole task of splitting the passages of the Quran to identify whether it’s referring to All of itself (all seven Ahruf) or parts of itself (one harf or another), this makes a shambles out of the Quran.

You have three choices. When God says he will protect the Quran does he mean 1) The tablet in heaven 2) The Quran as an attribute of God 3) The Quran revealed on earth? 4) or All three of them? And when you figured that out tell me… if he does mean he preserves the Quran revealed on earth, what Quran does he mean, does he mean, an earthly Quran that contains 1) All seven Ahruf 2) One Harf 3) Some of every Ahruf 4) Some parts of some Ahruf (1 ,2 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7)? Also let me know how many Qurans there are.

Argument 2

Thank you for the red herring. Since the point wasn’t that the tablet contained a full recording, rather that the tablet contains the Quran in all seven modes, the full Quran. But I don’t even need to use the example of the tablet. The clear unequivocal truth is that according to Islam the Quran is eternal, and it is not eternal in the sense that it was part of God’s foreknowledge, rather it is the literal kalema(word and speech) of God.

The eternal Quran consists of seven Ahruf which means the full Quran is only and can only be the Quran that has all seven Ahruf. This Quran was the very same Quran revealed by Gabriel to Mohammed, the very Quran that Uthman destroyed.

Now apart from the uninspired Uthman acting in treason (notice if a kufr destroyed a Quran it wouldn’t be acceptable), you also have to contend with the fact that Uthman destroyed the Eternal Speech of God. How is it possible an unchanging, eternal word of God can be abrogated and burnt by Uthman?

I’ll leave that one for your scholars. Since they can’t use the old canard “We gave the Jews the responsibility”, no they must account for the fact that the eternal word of God the Quran itself that cannot be changed, was actually destroyed by a Muslim.

Argument 3

Even if there were that would be an impossible and logically fallacious claim to make. For several reasons. First, the ahruf cannot be *fully* the Quran to the exclusion of the other Ahruf. If you say the Ahruf is *the full and complete Quran* then you have conceded the other ahruf are not part of that fullness that constitutes the Quran. If you say "one ahruf is the fully what compromises the Quran" you leave out to the exclusion all the other ahruf.

Just like if you were to say "the box is fully empty" then there can be nothing else in that box. Unless of course you admit there is "another fully empty box" which means there is two boxes. In your case if you say the first harf is the full Quran, and the second harf is the full Quran, and so forth, then you have a total of seven Qur'ans.

The second and most obvious reason is that the full Quran is in the eternal tablet in heaven. All of the seven ahruf constitute this Quran, this is the full and identical word of God. Meaning lets say if one harf was missing from this tablet, then this could no longer be the Quran, similarly if one harf was missing on the heavenly "revealed" Quran on earth, it could no longer be the full Quran.
You cannot say “each harf is fully the Quran” without implying seven Qurans. In fact let me illustrate this reasoning for you. According to Muslim criticisms of the Trinity, if the Father is fully God, and the Son is fully God and the Holy Spirit is fully God, then there are THREE DISTINCT GODS. Likewise if each harf is fully the Quran, then there are SEVEN DISTINCT QURANS.

Study the Preservation of the Quran

I have debated the preservation of the Quran with several Muslims, check out these articles (all in chronological order) for jam packed information:
 
http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/01/quranic-preservation-errors-made-by.html
http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/03/is-quran-perfectly-preserved-new.html
http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/05/is-quran-perfectly-preserved-another.html
http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/05/preservation-of-quran-continued.html
http://www.answeringabraham.com/2012/05/has-quran-been-perfectly-preserved.html (Includes the entire conversation with Bassam Zawadi)

I also recommend reading this book:

http://www.answering-islam.org/PQ/

And these articles: 

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/quran_compilation.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/quran_variants.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_seventy.htm

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/jesus_lord.html

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/bravo1.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Saifullah/bravo4.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/bravo_r4bc.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/bravo_r4bc_add.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/allahs_identity.htm
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/02/failure-of-muslim-response-to-ibn-masud.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/12/aisha-and-ubayy-ibn-kab-on-100-verses.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/12/islams-amazingly-unfalsifiable-claims.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/quranically-confused-muhammads-chosen.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/more-lost-surahs-of-perfectly-preserved.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/fogg-is-lifted.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/seven-ahruf-quranic-escape-clause.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/manuscript-genocide-and-illusion-of.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/quran-vs-bible-ex-muslims-comparison-of.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/bible-quran-and-impact-of-textual.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/bible-quran-and-impact-of-textual.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/02/ibn-masud-on-zaids-mushaf.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/02/quran-missing-prayer.html
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/02/zaid-ibn-thabit-vs-ubayy-ibn-kab-on.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/07/bassam-zawadi-vs-nabeel-qureshi-has.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/04/another-quranic-deficiency-mentioned-in.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/01/more-lost-surahs-of-perfectly-preserved.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2012/05/quran-preservation-pamphlet-now.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2008/12/islams-amazingly-unfalsifiable-claims.html

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2010/01/abdullah-kunde-vs-samuel-green.html

We can only concur with the words of Mohammed Ibn Ishaq in conclussion:

Thus saith Muhammad ibn Ishaq [al-Nadim]: I have seen a number of Quranic manuscripts, which the transcribers recorded as manuscripts from Ibn Mas‘ud. NO TWO QUR'ANIC COPIES WERE IN AGREEMENT and most of them were on badly effaced parchment. (Abu'l-Faraj Muhammad ibn Ishaq Al-Nadim, The Fihrist - A 10th Century AD Survey of Islamic Culture, edited and translated by Bayard Dodge [Great Books of the Islamic World, Inc., Columbia University Press, 1970], p. 57)

According to this very same reference it wasn't just the MSS of Ibn Masud's Quran which were not in complete agreement:

Books Composed About Discrepancies of the [Qur'anic] Manuscripts. The Discrepancies between the Manuscripts of the people of al-Madina, al-Kufa, and al-Basrah, according to al-Kisai; book of Khalaf, Discrepancies of the manuscripts; Discrepancies of the People of al-Kufa, al-Basrah and Syria concerning the Manuscripts, by al-Farra'; Discrepancies between the Manuscripts, Abu Da'ud al-Sijistani; book of al-Mada'ini about the discrepancies between the manuscripts and the compiling of the Qur'an; Discrepancies between the Manuscripts of Syria, al-Hijaz, and al-Iraq, by Ibn Amir al-Yahsubi; book of Muhammad ibn 'Abd Al-Rahman al-Isbahani about discrepancies of the manuscripts. (Op., cit. p. 79)