Keith Thompson is the man, we have waited a long long time for this film and finally he ends up with an 8 hour documentary (and an upcoming book on the same subject!). Definitely donate to Keith or support his ministry if you are financially capable, he has really put a staggering amount of effort into this.
If you're led to support the ministry, consider buying a copy of the DVD at: www.reformedapologeticsministries.com
My Thoughts
Before Seeing the Film
These are my thoughts before watching the documentary.
Admittedly I don't know much about the Roman Catholic/Protestant controversies, I studied this more back in 2005-2009 period.
I have only recently renewed my faith, so I believe I am just a babe in Christ in terms of my knowledge of these issues.
I certainly don't have a clue what Martin Luther's 91 thesis are. But I am faintly familiar with the 5 solas, perhaps more sola scriptura and sola fide.
To describe my current view. Personally I don't feel comfortable with assumption of Mary/prayers to the deceased, and have never been compelled intellectually to accept papal jurisdiction and infallibility. The Eucharist from what I know has alot of ancient support, (although I'm aware not unanimous) and seems to be something worthy of serious consideration.
On the other side: Sola Scriptura to me on the service level doesn't seem all to convincing, perhaps something like Primia Scriptura.
Other side issues like Maryam Dogmas: Mary Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, Mary's perpetual virginity, whether Jesus had brothers etc, are irrelevant for me personally, I wouldn't join/reject a Church based on these factors.
After The Film
(Soon To Update With My Thoughts)
hi
ReplyDelete1. Its actually called the "95 thesis" which you can read here http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/history/95theses.htm. When you check that link you can see why the 95 thesis are pretty much irrelevant to modern Protestantism. The 95 thesis repeatedly affirms purgatory, indulgences, the papacy, the sacraments, etc. Luther later recanted much of this so the thesis are basically unimportant to modern protestants.
ReplyDelete2. You should not be uncomfortable with the Assumption of Mary. First you must note that all the apostolic churches recognize the assumption of Mary (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox). She was assumed into heaven, meaning she was raised by Jesus, and did not ASCEND into heaven (which would be of her own power like Jesus Christ).
3. You shouldn't have a problem with papal infallibility. If we can accept the Apostles as fallible human beings who fought infallibly there is no reason we cannot apply this same precept to the rock on which Jesus builds his church, the seat of peter, which the gates of hell cannot overtake.
4. The Eucharist IS unanimous among the Church Fathers. There are no Church Fathers who deny the Eucharist, that would have been just as big a heresy as denying the divinity of Christ in those days.
5.Here is the problem with Prima Scriptura. If you believe in Prima Scriptura, then what is your final authority? If you can ever use tradition as your final authority then don't you find it strange that you are using something that you consider to be below scripture to be your final authority? If tradition can never be used as a final authority then you are back to sola scriptura. The issue of final authority makes prima scripture quite faulty.
Thank you
Greetings Sebedee,
DeleteSadly what you say is refuted in the film. We never claimed Mary ascended. We argued there is no evidence the apostles handed on the teaching of Mary's assumption as part of the deposit of faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3). In fact there is evidence against the idea that this is part of the deposit of faith. That is the main issue so it is irrelevant if later men start to believe it. You said the Eucharist is unanimous among the fathers. Correct. But not transubstantiation or viewing the mass as the same propitiatory and expiatory sacrifice of Christ. We showed this was not the earliest view passed on the by the apostles and the the most primitive fathers did not teach it. In regards to papal infallibility, yes the apostles fought infallibly as fallible men, but there is no primitive basis to say Peter alone had the authority to ratify a council to dogmatic status, give ex cathedra statements under specific conditions laid down by Vatican I 1700 years after Christ. This is not part of the faith once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3). Ludwig Ott admits the church fathers did not teach this idea either. Peter being the rock Jesus utilizes to expand/grow/build His church through his preaching does not prove papal infallibility at all.
I'm not a scholar on the level of you guys, but I have a few friends who are converts to Roman Catholicism and they seem to focus on Sebedee's #5 above. Over the years and in talking to these friends, I've come to see the idea that we need any "final authority" besides the Holy Spirit blasphemous. Do you we not believe the Holy Spirit is a person filled with truth and authority? "Neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth." God is with us and it testifies to his mercy and patience that he deals gently with us even though we appeal to lesser authorities right in front of him.
DeletePeople respond to this by saying appeal to the Holy Spirit is a subjective standard, with no way of arbitrating disputes. I think this only serves to highlight the blasphemy of their position. It amounts to a confession that they do not know the Spirit. For if we all know the same Spirit, appealing to him as authority is no more subjective than appealing to a king or pope. 1 Corinthians 2 is quite clear about the continuing role He plays among us.
This is not an apology for modern pentecostals who emphasize celebrity and personal spiritual power, and whose distance from the true Spirit of Christ is shown by the amount of heresy and fraud they tolerate. (Keith's documentary on the Word-Faith movement is appropriately damning.) The Spirit-inspired scriptures are useful for rebuking these. Indeed, even tradition and communal wisdom may serve a purpose in that. My point is that though the world abounds with false Christs, we who know him will discern the difference. The Holy Spirit is a person who has an existence outside of us, as affirmed by Scripture and early church councils, but more importantly by the fact that we have actually met him. Appealing to him as the source of truth and the means of interpreting scripture is not subjectivity, it is reverence and faithfulness to our God.
However great a scholar anyone may be, they are not a Christian unless they know the Spirit of Jesus. And anyone who knows the Spirit will understand that while they need elders to teach and train them, they do not need a fixed human authority as the arbiter of all disputes. The early church understood this, which is why we didn't see a single-bishop model for local churches, let alone a papacy, until hundreds of years after the death of the apostles.
Sebedee, do you belong to Christ?
Delete"The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." - Romans 8:6-11.
When we enter into eternity all pretense and all scholarship will fade away. Only one thing will matter: whether or not we know Jesus. (Matt: 7:23)
Thanks for your thoughts CBD. I will update the post soon with my views. With the assumption I believe others have been assumed into heaven (like Enoch and Elijah) , thus it's not a matter of impossibility but perhaps whether the evidence is believable.
ReplyDeleteAnd indeed Rightly It Is The Point Of The Faith That decided True or False Gospel teaching ,in today's world of theology false concepts and confusion over this truth is so wide spread in the churches one would think that the true teaching of justification is lost to the Christian World ,But at last the truth of Justification by Faith is Preserve by a faithful remnant as the multitude of the christian world is departing from the faith and giving heed to doctrines of devils that deny the grace of God in salvation from sin. The biblical understanding of Justification is the solution to the sin problem of man as we read in paul writing (Rom 1:18-32,and Rom 3:9-19) we are all without God and Christ in this world (Eph 2:2,12) not only are we without God and Christ but we are all in bondage to sin and Satan in Sin Because of The Carnal Mind and also we are all under the control of Satan and Evil Angels (Rom 8:6-7) ,So then the only solution to this problem of man is the solution of Justification of life to the sinner who is dead in his Sin (Rom 5:18,Eph 2:1-5) Thus Justification of the ungodly can only be the giving of Life to the ungodly who is dead in his sins by God (Rom 4:5) Making Justification Transformative in nature by God Making Us Righteous First From Within and not just declaring us Righteous only but it is the work of God and Christ in Us first by inner cleansing of our Sins(Mat 23:25-26, 1Jh 1:9) We also read of this truth of Justification by david in asking God to Give him a New Heart with a renew Spirit (Ps 51:10) also the truth of justification bring with it work of God in dealing with our sin first ,How does God first deal with our Sin problem by Justification ? David can tell us by (Ps 51:2,7,10) By washing and cleansing us from iniquity and sin,by purging us from sin and making us clean and white as snow in our character by creating in us a clean heart also as said by luther it is the New Birth thus this is the true foundation of Biblical Justification and not what is being said by Apostate christianity both evangelical and papal rome . Many are trusting to a false Gospel and are still yet in their sins for they have not yet come to an true understanding of justification by faith in Christ which is the power of God to Salvation from sin (Rom 1:16-17) and not a salvation in our sins
ReplyDeleteI have so much to say on this point of the faith in justification which i am not able to do now but if need be for any more clarity on what i understand justification to be one can look me up on youtube Andy Montrose I have some videos on justification on my youtube channel
ReplyDeleteAnyone know where Keith Thompson went?
ReplyDeleteI'm seeking him out as well
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