This episode and the follow up discussion was a reaction to an interview Ijaz Ahmad had with Sheik Awal (a student of the deceased Ahmed Deedat). Awal in this interview gave his reasoning for why he cancelled the second of two debates, and claims James White or members of his ministry and other Christians have not supplied the debate video, possibly edited the debate and "attacked the Masjeed" and employed "deceptive behavior".
Dr. James White does a fair job in explaining why these accusations are simply untrue. James White then points out he should not be held accountable for the actions of David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi, or Sam Shamoun and that his public relationship with these individuals does not mean he is their "elder" or even "member of the same Church", he even expresses disagreement with some of Sam's behavior.
Ijaz however predictably and irrationally insists that it was a good choice to cancel the second debate with James based on the behavior of others! Ijaz may need to take a lesson from the Bible:
The person who sins is the one who will die. A son will not suffer for his father's iniquity, and a father will not suffer for his son's iniquity; the righteous person will be judged according TO HIS righteousness, and the wicked person according TO HIS wickedness. (Ezekiel 18:19-20 NET)(The post by Yahya Snow referenced by Ijaz is here: thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.co.nz/2014/03/james-white-inconsistent-if-he-does-not.html)
During the discourse James White asks Ijaz:
"Do you recognize there are times when the Muslims are so despicable in their attacks upon Sam, that Sam has responded in kind? And Sam will admit that!"Ijaz responds by saying that "Sam Initiates it" And then references emails and an episode on Paltalk which he says of:
"No I can't, for 20 minutes he attacked my mother, my father, my family, every curse that you can imagine"I will let you be the judge, since while Sam may be considered harsh on Ijaz, in this clip, he certainly doesn't personally insult Ijaz Ahmed's family or present: "every curse imaginable" for 20, or 25 minutes or 30 minutes or whatever contradictory report Ijaz makes up:
(Hopefully Ijaz does not take this video down, since he has a history of removing discussions that he finds challenging)
But why was Sam harsh on Ijaz? Could it be that in this dialogue Sam himself was actually an example of the very assertion made by James White? In other words Sam was retaliating in kind, due to Ijaz Ahmad's past behavior? The straight forward answer is indeed. Sam is familiar with Ijaz Ahmad in a way that many of us are not. The following are some examples of Mr Ahmad's etiquette that you may not be familiar with.
Why James White Should Not Debate Ijaz Ahmad
This is video, Ijaz Ahmad cannot remove:
After Ijaz inaccurately describing what Christians have worshiped, he proceeds to explain the final item we worship:
23:59:"Lastly in their fervor and zealous craze, they've even worshiped the foreskin of a man, that is the holy prepuce"And of Anthony, Ijaz says:
34:00: "Now Anthony's a person we cannot excuse, Anthony's like the comatose man from the parable, like the brain-dead man, but he's a tad bit worse because he accepts that malach means messenger and not God"UPDATE: Anthony Rogers kindly reminded me of his post on Ijaz Ahmad. In this post Ijaz goes back to his usual "classy" behavior.
In his post (callingchristians.com/an-introduction-to-christianity/), Ijaz says:
"Circumsized, ate and evidently went to W.C?
8) Luke 2:21
“And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.”
Is anyone not familiar with the meaning of the word “circumcised”? Just in case, circumcision simply means:
“Male circumcision is the surgical removal of some or the entire foreskin (prepuce) from the penis.”
Seriously, I am even ashamed of myself by saying this. How could anyone attribute such a thing to the Almighty God? HE HAD THE DIRTY PART OF HIS GENITALS CUT? DIRTY AND THIS PART? Unfortunately, Christians do not realize the extent of blasphemy they are uttering by believing that God was a man, a fully human being."
In yet another post ( "callingchristians.com/2011/12/21/cl-edwards-claims-divinity-prophetic-powers/") we can see evidence of Ijaz's cordial demeanor:
"CL. Edwards Claims Divinity/ Prophetic Powers
by Ijaz Ahmad ...
It honestly does take a special breed of idiot to believe in such fanciful things, when especially both the Bible and Qur’aan condemn these people as soothsayers. Lo and behold, enters the newest act that this freak show has to offer. None other than CL Edwards of Calling Muslims. During a debacle on Facebook,he decided to attribute divinity to himself:
Unfortunately for Ijaz he is merely the pot calling the kettle black. Don't throw stones when you live in glass houses! Many a time has Ijaz initiated unprovoked cursing and insulting.
All of us including Sam are familiar with Ijaz's duplicity and dramatic antics. This was a dubious attempt to justify why one of his heroes backed out of a scheduled debate, he also tries to post-rationalize why another hero of his turned out to to be a secret gay-Muslim. Ijaz needs to start living consistently or just admit he has no problem with insults, curses and cease making blatantly false excuses.
In conclusion, to telescope a thought of James White. Was not Sheik Awal already familiar with David Wood and Sam Shamoun demeanor? Was he not already aware of their reputation among certain Muslims? Why did he then debate them the first time?
Why attribute the actions of one person to another person, when they aren't necessarily approved of?
Take a note from your own book Ijaz:
Qur’an 35:18—And no bearer of burdens shall bear another's burden, and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin.
quote --Circumsized, ate and evidently went to W.C? --unquote
ReplyDeleteI'm getting bored by moslem hypothesis on Jesus going to the toilet,
Both Bible & Quran clearly states that Jesus was made the same way as Adam was created.
We don't know quite sure how a 'perfect metabolism' functioned before the fall.
However some interesting facts on moslem side:
1. Quran states , Adam had lived in 'heaven' in certain amount of period before he sinned and being cast out of heaven , Since Quran also says Isa was created the same way as Adam before Adam sinned then if muslim believed Isa went to toilet then they also should believe Adam had been going to toilet when he was still in heaven.
In Islam Feces is one of many things being identified as Najis= unclean. This means islamic version of heaven is not so "pure &holy" after all, not to mention the 'odor'
2. Muslim also believes Jesus has been taken to heaven physically alive and has been living there since. If muslim still insisted with this 'toilet theory' then they should also agree on the idea that some part of their heaven is najis /unclean.
Muslim might argue that heaven and earth is different, yet for christian this wouldn't be a problem since Jesus is the owner of heaven and He brought piece of heaven within Him when He lived on earth