In a previous post replying to Ijaz Ahmad, I demonstrated that Zechariah’s overall theology is generally supprtive of my thesis that the Angel of the Lord is the distinctive title for a second divine person in the Godhead in so far as the book of Zechariah teaches that there are two divine persons.
My response
He teaches no such thing.
The missionary wrote
In this post I will show not only that Zechariah teaches that there is a second divine person, but that the Angel of the Lord in particular is identified as Yahweh.
The first passage that can be mentioned is found in Zechariah 3, which presents a courtroom scene in heaven. The passage reads:
1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4 He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “ Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.” 5 Then I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the Lord was standing by. 6 And the angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 “Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
Here an interpreting angel shows Zechariah what took place between three named figures and several who are not named: the Angel of the Lord, Satan, Joshua the high priest, and those who are told to remove Joshua’s filthy garments and replace them with clean clothes and also a clean turban.
While a clear distinction is drawn between the Angel and Yahweh, as is evident when the Angel refers to the Lord in the third person:
“The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!...” (v. 2)
And when the Angel prefaces His statement with the prophetic refrain:
“Thus says the Lord of hosts…” (v. 6)
Nevertheless the Angel in this same vision is also identified as Yahweh. Verse 2 reads in full:
The Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
So it is not simply that the Angel speaks about the Lord in the third person, but that it is as the Lord that He does so. Both the one who speaks, i.e. the Angel, and the one about whom He speaks, i.e. the one called on to rebuke Satan, are Yahweh.
My response
That is his fancy interpretation however the verse does not say that. Also again this is not a teaching. This is a vision.
The missionary wrote
This accounts for why the Angel is cast in the role of heavenly judge, the one who presides over the whole affair. Note, in this courtroom scene everyone is standing before the Angel, and it is before the Angel that Satan accuses Joshua:
My response
There is no Judge here again this is only a vision not a teaching.
The missionary wrote
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. (v. 1)
He spoke and said to those who were standing before him… (v. 4)
As commentator Eugene H. Merrill rightly observes:
The setting of the vision is quite clear. Joshua is standing in a tribunal, where he is being accused of unfitness for the priestly ministry. The judge is the messenger (or angel) of YHWH. The implied definite article [based on the construction in Hebrew – AR] makes it virtually certain that this being is the same as the messenger of YHWH in 1:11, 12. There he was distinguished from YHWH Himself (v. 12), but here he is identified with Him (v. 2).6 This [i.e. that the Messenger is being identified with YHWH – AR] appears even more likely inasmuch as Satan is accusing Joshua before the messenger, a notion that finds NO SUPPORT ELSEWHERE in the Bible. The adversary ALWAYS argues his case BEFORE GOD, not a representative of God, as the very similar scene in the prologue of Job establishes beyond doubt. (Merrill, An Exegetical Commentary: Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi [Chicago: Moody Press, 1994]), pp. 131-132.
6. This is so obviously true, and problematic, that most modern scholars following the Syriac…, emend “YHWH” to “Angel of YHWH.” See, e.g. H. G. Mitchell, A Commentary on Haggai and Zechariah, ICC (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1912), 143. Such special pleading is oblivious to the witness of the OT to the interchangeability of YHWH and the Angel of YHWH.
Shortly after saying the above, Merrill goes on:
A possible objection to the identification of the messenger with YHWH in our passage is that the messenger appears to quote YHWH in vv. 6-7, thus differentiating himself from YHWH. However, this is not a serious problem at all, for a careful reading of Angel of YHWH passages makes it clear that the messenger, though distinguished from YHWH, often speaks as YHWH (cf. Gen. 16:7-13; 21:17; 22:11-12; 15-16; 31:11-13; Judg. 6:11-24; 13:15-20). That is, the messenger of YHWH is YHWH as He discloses Himself to human beings. (Merrill, ibid.), p. 132
What is said above about the Angel/Yahweh is similar to what we see in another courtroom scene, where once again Satan appears to accuse a godly man, and once again it is before Yahweh that He does so:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.” 8 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” 12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord. (Job 1:6-12)
Another passage relevant to the above is found in 1 Kings, where once again it is the Lord who presides as heavenly judge:
Micaiah said, “Therefore, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord SITTING ON HIS THRONE, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. (1 Kings 22:19; cf. 2 Chronicles 18:18)
These passages about the Lord presiding over the heavenly council evince the deity of the Angel who is called Yahweh and who is seen in Zechariah 3 doing this exact thing. Anyone who heard or read the words of this later prophet who was familiar with the previous Scriptures would have recognized the equation that Zechariah makes when he speaks of the Angel of the Lord the same way the Scriptures spoke of Yahweh. Of course those acquainted with what had already been revealed up to the time of Zechariah would not have been stumbled by this, for the Angel is repeatedly identified as Yahweh throughout Israel’s history.
That the Angel is Lord also accounts for why He exercises the exclusively divine prerogative of forgiving sin in this passage, which is symbolically enacted under the Angel’s/Lord’s direction by the removal of Joshua’s filthy garments and Joshua being outfitted with festal robes for God’s service, an utterly gracious act that results in the Lord of Hosts promising Joshua, as high priest, free access among those who stand in God’s court:
He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again He said to him, “See, I HAVE TAKEN YOUR INQUITY AWAY from you and will clothe you with festal robes.” (v. 4)
We see that the Angel of the Lord has the power to exercise this divine prerogative elsewhere as well, and once again He is identified as the one who bears the very name of God.
20 “Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him. (Exodus 23:20-21)
In fact, the Lord in the very next chapter of Exodus refers to the Angel as Yahweh:
1 Then He said to Moses, “Come UP TO the Lord, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,and WORSHIP from afar. 2 Moses alone shall come NEAR TO the Lord, but the others shall not come near, and the people shall not come up with him.” (Exodus 24:1-2)
My response
First No one stands before the true creator it says no one can see my face and live Exodus Chapter 33:20 And He said: 'Thou canst not see My face, for man shall not see Me and live.
Second having said that wherever you are in the world this one or the next world you are always standing before the true creator. The reason for this is the true creator fills the whole world. Jeremiah Chapter 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
In the three times the missionary has quoted courts no one was standing before the Almighty Creator. As for this case how does he know what the case is about he mentions “accused of unfitness for the priestly ministry” why should he not be fit for the priestly ministry the missionary has no clue because all they read the Jewish Bible and the Prophets is to find their false god and proselytize others to worship their false god. For the missionary information if he can read it says. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan: 'The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan, yea, the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this man a brand plucked out of the fire?.
This means satan has accused Joshua wrongly and the true creator of the world has rebuked satan for this, Joshua has been exonerated of all wrongdoing which means again no iniquity was committed. Hence he is now standing before an angel who is being shown to Zachariah that his false charges of iniquity is being removed. This again means if we are not clear if some one has a fake tattoo which it were a real tattoo would be a sin in the Jewish Bible than some one not knowing it is a fake accuses him of having a tattoo he than removes it there is no more even appearance of sin so it does not mean as the missionary said forgiven. Than Zachariah says if he never sinned he should be the high priest Zechariah Chapter 3:5 And I said: 'Let them set a fair mitre upon his head.'( The high priest hat) So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments; and the angel of the LORD stood by. to which they reply you are right he will be the high priest. So there is no trial here like this ignoramuses claims.
Just a side note here we see the missionary thought that by taking off the clothing he was forgiven but the missionary who claims you cant be forgiven without a blood sacrifice is blinded over here to see merely talking off your dirty clothe will earn you forgiveness no sacrifice needed.
As far as the missionary claiming that an angel cant judge how does he know this is a fact in fact his own Christianity claims they can as in Psalms 82 it says .Psalm 82 A psalm of Asaph. 1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%2082&version=NIV
Now who can claim judgment among the “gods” if not for the angels, the court this missionary mentioned before.
As far as forgiving sins how does the missionary know that an angel cannot forgive sins. He has no clue as to why. We will teach this to the pagan later.
The missionary is puzzled by this verse claiming that there must be two L-RDS in heaven. It puzzles me why the missionary is puzzled. Later on he quotes the Talmud which gives the answer in another similar verse one is an angel talking and one is the true creator. It is also perplexing why the missionary didn’t realize the same answer is given here. There should not be any surprise that an angel is called the L-ord after all we see in the Jewish Bible people are called gods. His own missionary web sites lists some of them. If people can be called gods why cant an angel be called a god.
Now here is where the crux of the matter lies Jews are taught by the true creator to worship only him not any one calling themselves god like the Christian god or the muslim god or any of the millions of false gods whom the people call their gods. So one may ask who is this G-D we should worship if many call themselves gods. The Jewish Bible gives the answer in this teaching Exodus Chapter 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. This means any twoinity or trinity or any pagan idea like that. This is what we call a teaching not a vision of how events transpired what some prophet had.
Deuteronomy Chapter 4: 12 And the LORD spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire; ye heard the voice of words, but ye saw no form; only a voice….. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves--for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire-- 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; 19and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven…… 33. Did ever a people hear God's voice speaking out of the midst of the fire as you have heard, and live?
34. Or has any god performed miracles to come and take him a nation from the midst of a[nother] nation, with trials, with signs, and with wonders, and with war and with a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great awesome deeds, as all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
Here Isaiah specifically states do not worship any one who is called by the true creators name that one was also created . We see in the above verses that it is prohibited to worship any of G-D’s creations.
Isaiah - Chapter 43:7. Everyone that is called by My name, and whom I created for My glory, I formed him, yea I made him.
So was it the Rabbis who sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed, or was it their pagan god who they claim either wrote the Jewish Bible or inspired it that gave no such biblical evidence.
Unlike the Christian books where who to worship is mentioned by hints like how they explain the trinity even though that word is not in their books. The true creator specifically assembled all the Jews and by Mt Sinai and informed them who to worship and how. So no matter any hints to the contrary that one may find In the Jewish Bible we follow the directive of the true creator.
Isaiah Chapter 48:16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit
The missionary wrote:
cf. Gen. 16:7-13; 21:17; 22:11-12; 15-16; 31:11-13; Judg. 6:11-24; 13:15-20). That is, the messenger of YHWH is YHWH as He discloses Himself to human beings. (Merrill, ibid.), p. 132
My response
The missionary went on to cite these verses we will analyze all of them.
Genesis - Chapter 16:7. And an angel of the Lord found her by a water fountain in the desert, by the fountain on the road to Shur. 8. And he said, "Hagar, Sarai's servant, where are you coming from, and where are you going to?" And she said, "From before Sarai my mistress, I am fleeing." 9. And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Return to your mistress, and allow yourself to be afflicted under her hands." 10. And the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your seed, and it will not be counted for abundance." 11. And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Behold, you will conceive and bear a son, and you shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard your affliction. 12. And he will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be upon all, and everyone's hand upon him, and before all his brothers he will dwell." 13. And she called the name of the Lord, Who had spoken to her, "You are the God of seeing," because she said, "Have I seen[him]here also after I have seen?" Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 21:17. And God heard the lad's voice, and an angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, "What is troubling you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the lad's voice in the place where he is.
The first two compellation of verses the missionary brings down. Genesis16:7-13; 21:17 has to do with Hagar. He is claiming that is how the Jews knew. “This was well understood by ancient Jews, as the later efforts of the Talmudic rabbis to suppress this teaching among Jews demonstrates.” Now Hagar, yes told her kids and her kids told her kids and somehow when it reached Mohamed he like the Jews as the missionary quotes countered the biblical evidence even though no bible was given to them and preached one creator “To this rather unflattering look at one example of how the Rabbis sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed,”. Does anyone in their right mind think she went and told Abraham me and you are pals this is how the whole story went down. It was an angel and I said it was the L-ord etc. etc and you should be worshiping an angel too. How pathetic these missionaries are. Yes the creator said let me teach Hagar Jewish theology of who to worship she will teach the rest of the Jewish nation.
The missionary wrote:
Genesis - Chapter 22:11. And an angel of God called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham! Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." 12. And he said, "Do not stretch forth your hand to the lad, nor do the slightest thing to him, for now I know that you are a God fearing man, and you did not withhold your son, your only one, from Me."15. And an angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven. 16. And he said, "By Myself have I sworn, says the Lord, that because you have done this thing and you did not withhold your son, your only one,
My response
I guess he is claiming the first time it does not say “says the Lord,” well actually if this pagan missionary will renounce his idol worship and seek a Rabbi on his hands and knees he can explain him why this is so. As for now we will see if this angel is his god as he claims. Verse 12 says “and you did not withhold your son, your only one, from Me” now the question arises if he mentioned your only one why didn’t he mention whom you love as verse 2 says. 2. And He said, "Please take your son, your only one, whom you love, yea, Isaac, and go away to the land of Moriah and bring him up there for a burnt offering on one of the mountains, of which I will tell you. This I will teach the missionary the reason is an angel does not know the hearts of people that is only for the true creator. 1 Kings Chapter 8: 39 then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and forgive, and do, and render unto every man according to all his ways, whose heart Thou knowest--for Thou, even Thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men--
Jeremiah Chapter 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see Thy vengeance on them; for unto Thee have I revealed my cause.
That is the reason he cannot say loved also it is the same reason an angel cannot forgive that is why in Exodus which we will mention later it says “The angel will not forgive you.” an angel does not know the hearts of people and this the idiot claims we should worship the angel.
So was it the Rabbis who sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed, or was it their pagan god who they claim either wrote the Jewish Bible or inspired it that gave no such biblical evidence.
The missionary wrote:
Chapter 31:11. And an angel of God said to me in a dream, 'Jacob!' And I said, 'Here I am.' 12. And he said, 'Now lift your eyes and see [that] all the he goats mounting the animals are ringed, speckled, and striped, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13. I am the God of Beth el, where you anointed a monument, where you pronounced to Me a vow. Now, arise, go forth from this land and return to the land of your birth.'"
My response
These are actually two different visions at two different times. However I am glad the missionary brought this up. The missionary says “ This was well understood by ancient Jews” Before I begin lets look at the another set of verses it starts off with Ephraim boasts I than says I have been the Lord so why doesn’t this ignoramus claim here it was well understood by ancient Jews that Ephraim was the L-ord.
Lets look at Hosea. Hosea 12:8 Ephraim boasts, “I am very rich; I have become wealthy. With all my wealth they will not find in me any iniquity or sin.” 9 “I have been the Lord your God ever since you came out of Egypt
We will now see if it was well understood by ancient Jews.
Let us look at the response of the two woman
Genesis - Chapter 31:16. But all the wealth that God separated from our father is ours and our children's. So now, all that God said to you, do."
According to this missionary they should have responded all that God and the angel said to you, do. I guess he maybe talking about real ancient Jews like Adam. Missionaries claim that since the Jewish Bible says “Genesis Chapter 1:26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' and the first verse G-D is plural than every one knew that there was a trinity or a duality of some kind. However what these ignoramuses fail to realize that Adam was not given the text of the Jewish Bible he did not see any us or plural in first verse. so how in sam hill did he know to worship a two or three godhead he only heard one voice. He didn’t know that the Christian retards would come centuries later and invent this pagan idea of three in one.
So let us go further maybe perhaps the two woman forgot to mention the angel and we are sure they taught their kids this. Well we come to after the Jews were taken out of Egypt by the true creator by this time being in pagan Egypt they surely would have adopted the pagan trinity however the Jews sing a song, we are assured by the missionary that the Jews know to worship G-D and an angel etc., However lo and behold they sing a song praising G-D for the miracles he performed for them.
Exodus Chapter 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spoke, saying: I will sing unto the LORD, for He is highly exalted; the horse and his rider hath He thrown into the sea. Now amazing as it is in the whole song never once do the Jews praise an angel or never once do they use the plural form for G-D as in the first verse of Genesis
In fact lets look at the chapter before Exodus Chapter 14:31 And Israel saw the great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared the LORD; and they believed in the LORD, and in His servant Moses.
Tell us pagan idol worshiper the Jews that said this did they worship an angel which no one told them about.
So was it the Rabbis who sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed, or was it their pagan god who they claim either wrote the Jewish Bible or inspired it that gave no such biblical evidence.
.
Further in Exodus we read
Exodus - Chapter 24: 3. So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances, and all the people answered in unison and said, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do."
This was before they had seen any written text of us or plural G-D, now we continue.
4. And Moses wrote all the words of the Lord, and he arose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain and twelve monuments for the twelve tribes of Israel.
Now the Rabbis commentary.
And Moses wrote: [the Jewish Bible’s text] from “In the beginning” (Gen 1:1), until the giving of the Jewish Bible. He [also] wrote the commandments that they were commanded in Marah. [Again, since all this took place before the giving of the Jewish Bible, Moses could write only up to that point.]
7. And he took the Book of the Covenant and read it within the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that the Lord spoke we will do and we will hear.
Now missionary this is the first time the Jews receive the written text and they see all the verses your scholars wrote proving that the angel is one of the godhead. What do the Jews say the same thing they said in verse 3 before they read the book? "All that the Lord spoke we will do and we will hear”. Did they say anything about an angle All that the Lord and the angel has spoken we will do and we will hear. No, so your scholars are lying prostitutes sold themselves to the devil or they are ignoramuses of the highest order and this passes for Christian scholarship, pathetic.
So was it the Rabbis who sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed, or was it their pagan god who they claim either wrote the Jewish Bible or inspired it that gave no such biblical evidence.
Lets go on with his dribble some more.
The missionary wrote
This was well understood by ancient Jews, as the later efforts of the Talmudic rabbis to suppress this teaching among Jews demonstrates. For example, the Babylonian Talmud records the following conversation between Rav Idi and a min, i.e. a “heretic.”
My response
Yes im sure every one has seen by this pagan idol worshiper how it was understood by ancient Jews.
In fact let us see some more how it was understood.
Psalms Chapter 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his dust; in that very day his thoughts perish.
ה אַשְׁרֵי--שֶׁאֵל יַעֲקֹב בְּעֶזְרוֹ: שִׂבְרוֹ, עַל-יְהוָה אֱלֹהָיו. 5 Happy is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
ו עֹשֶׂה, שָׁמַיִם וָאָרֶץ-- אֶת-הַיָּם וְאֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-בָּם;
הַשֹּׁמֵר אֱמֶת לְעוֹלָם. 6 Who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is;
who keepeth truth for ever
Isaiah Chapter 42:5 ה כֹּה-אָמַר הָאֵל יְהוָה, בּוֹרֵא הַשָּׁמַיִם וְנוֹטֵיהֶם, רֹקַע הָאָרֶץ, וְצֶאֱצָאֶיהָ; נֹתֵן נְשָׁמָה לָעָם עָלֶיהָ, וְרוּחַ לַהֹלְכִים בָּהּ. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, He that created the heavens, and stretched them forth, He that spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it, He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Both of these verses if you look at the Hebrew it uses the singular הָאֵל to tell us who created the heavens and earth. What in essence it is saying is don’t listen to these pagans, Jews never worshiped any one but one G-D and the first verse in the Jewish Bible where it may seem plural well it means singular. So it is not the Rabbis who suppressed this as the pagan claims it was the prophets.
The missionary wrote
Rav Nahman said: A person who knows how to answer the minim as Rav Idi, let him answer, and if not, let him not answer.
A certain min said to Ravi Idi: “It is written, ‘And to Moses he said, come up unto the LORD [Exod. 24:1].’ It should have said, ‘Come up to me’!”
He [Rav Idi] said to him: “This was Metatron, whose name is like the name of his master, as it is written, ‘for My name is in him’ [Exod. 23:21].”
“But if so, we should worship him!”
“It is written, ‘Do not rebel against him’ [Exod. 23:21] — Do not confuse him with me!”
“If so, then why does it say ‘He will not forgive your sins’”?
“We have sworn that we would not even receive him as a guide, for it is written ‘If Your face goes not [do not bring us up from here]’ [Exod. 33:15].” (Babylonian Talmud, 38b)
Orthodox Jewish scholar Daniel Boyarin
My response
See the reviews of this so called Orthodox Jewish scholar
http://www.tzvee.com/Home/intertextuality-and-midrash
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1EXMMQ33PP4PI/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1EXMMQ33PP4PI
http://www.tnr.com/print/article/103373/books-and-arts/magazine/jewish-gospels-christ-boyarin
The missionary wrote
offers the following penetrating analysis of this portion of the Talmud:
God has been addressing the Jewish people as a whole (in Exodus chapter 23), informing them that he will send his angel before them and instructing them how to behave with respect to this angel.
My response
Yes unfortunately for the pagans Jews as a whole received instructions who to believe in from the true creator. These Christian pagans received instructions from some unknown nut cases who followed their god. The most laughable thing about it is they say their books were inspired by their god. Can these liars prove that it was inspired with their 45,000 manuscripts. I have never understood how writing 45,000 times something makes it true and inspired. Any idiot can write a book and claim it was inspired by his god.
The missionary wrote
He then turns to Moses and tells him to come up to YKWK (the Tetragrammaton), implying quite strongly that “YKWK” of whom he speaks is not the same “YKWK” who is the speaker of the verse: Two YKWKs. This is, in fact, precisely the sort of argument that a Justin Martyr would have produced from Scripture to argue for a “second person” (the Logos). And so theminim conclude that there is a second power in heaven. Rav Idi, in refuting them, turns back to the previous chapter and remarks that verse 21 there explicitly says that “My name is in him [that is in the angel].” Metatron, that angel, therefore, could be called by the name “YKWK,” and it is to him that Moses is being instructed to ascend. What this amounts to is claiming that there are not two divine powers in heaven but only God and an angel whom he has named as God as well.
At this point, the min responds by saying that if Metatron is indeed called by the ineffable name, then we ought to worship him as well; in other words, that Rav Idi’s own answer can be turned against him. To this, Rav Idi retorts that the verse also says “Do not rebel against him,” which by a typical midrashic sleight of hand can be read as “Do not substitute him,” that is, even though Metatron is called by God’s name, do not pray to him. Al tamer bo [Do not rebel against him] has been read asAl tamireni bo: Don’t substitute him for me. The very verse in which Israel is enjoined to obey the second YKWK has been turned by a pun into its exact opposite.
My response
Excuse me pagan idol worshiper how is obeying some one make the one being obeyed into a god. I had informed this pagan before that Moses was called a god and Jews were enjoined to obey him does that mean we worship Moses. I bet this pagan and this nut case boyarin have no clue if the angel is named Metatron how that is “G-Ds name is in him.” We don’t find even the name Metatron in the whole Jewish Bible, the books of the prophets or the writings so how in sam hill are the Jews going to worship him if they don’t even know his name or never heard of him.
In fact unlike this pagan as I quoted before Jews are specifically enjoined not to worship any one called by his name. Isaiah - Chapter 43:7. Everyone that is called by My name, and whom I created for My glory, I formed him, yea I made him.
Deuteronomy Chapter 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and ordinances, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. 15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves--for ye saw no manner of form on the day that the LORD spoke unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire-- 16 lest ye deal corruptly, and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,17 the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the heaven, 18 the likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water under the earth; 19 and lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun and the moon and the stars, even all the host of heaven, thou be drawn away and worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath allotted unto all the peoples under the whole heaven.
Can this be any clearer that it says do not worship my creations. Oh so the pagan will say show me where it says angels were created. Sure we can show this idol worshiper.
1 Hallelujah. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the heights.
2 Praise ye Him, all His angels; praise ye Him, all His hosts.
3 Praise ye Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all ye stars of light.
4 Praise Him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that are above the heavens.
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD; for He commanded, and they were created
The pagan, when shown the verse that G-D said he is not a man asked me well cant he have become a man. Well if this were so how can any one be convicted to a death penalty as prescribed in the Jewish Bible for worshiping a man. The victim will say well he is a god manifest into a man. So this law can never be upheld would G-D make a law that can never be enforced? Of course the Christian will argue well can he perform miracles yes is the answer he just doesn’t want to show you. Did the Christian god perform all his miracles in front of any one besides his decuples. Well the Christian answers sure it says in their book in front of lots of peoples. In the Muslim book it claims the same thing about Mohamed so If they believe their gods miracles are true just because it says in a book they have to believe in Mohamed’s miracles to which of course they don’t.
We also have these verses that say G-D cannot become a man.
Kings 1 Chapter 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You; much less this temple that I have erected.
2 Chronicles Chapter 6:18 But will God in very truth dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain Thee; how much less this house which I have builded!
The missionary wrote
The min says if that is what is meant, then why does it continue in the verse and say that he, Metatron, will not forgive sins? The min is arguing that if the people are being warned not to rebel against Metatron, because he is as powerful as God, then it makes sense to tell them that he will not forgive their sins if they do rebel, but if he is not God at all, then it is otiose to tell them that he will not forgive sins. Only if he has the power to redeem sins does it make sense to declare that he will not rebel [sic; forgive?] their sins if they rebel against him. (Of course, the rabbinic reading is: Don’t confuse him with me for he cannot redeem sins but only I can. The “heretical” reading, I’m afraid, is much stronger and more adequate to the language) …
I would suggest, moreover, that, in typical midrashic fashion, another verse lies underneath this comment of the min. Joshua 24:19 reads: “It will be very difficult for you [lit. you will not be able to] worship YKWK, for He is a holy God; He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your sins and your iniquities.” In other words, the logic would run: if there it remarks of YKWK that he will not forgive sins and iniquities, then if the same language is being used here, ought it not indicate that the divine figure being spoken of has the same attributes as YKWK? Moreover, if there the context is one of worshipping YKWK, then here too worship of Metatron, the second Lord or lesser Yahu [as the Talmud calls him – AR], would seem to be implicated as well. The comparison is rendered even stronger when we notice that exactly the same context is involved in both the Exodus and the Joshua verse, namely the expulsion of the Canaanites from the land of Israel and the warnings to the people of Israel to be worthy of this benefit and to worship YKWK, or their sin will not be forgiven at all.
My response
Well lets analyze this ignorant pagans retort we will investigate Joshua 24:19
Joshua - Chapter 24:14. And now fear the Lord, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth; and remove the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the river and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15. And if it displeases you to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the river, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell, but as for me and my household, we shall serve the Lord.". 16. And the nation answered and said, "God forbid that we should forsake the Lord, to serve other gods; 17. For the Lord our God, it is He Who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and Who performed these great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the peoples through whom we passed. . 18. And the Lord drove out all the nations, and the Amorites who dwell in the land, from before us; we too shall serve the Lord for He is our God 19. And Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God: He is a jealous God: He will not forgive your trangressions or your sins.20. When you forsake the Lord and serve strange gods, then He will turn and do you evil, and destroy you, after He has done you good."21. And the people said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve the Lord." 22. And Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the Lord for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "[We are] witnesses."
Here we have in verse 14 and 15 Joshua telling the people to chose which deity they want to worship pagan deity like Christians do or the true creator like Abraham Isaac and Jacob worshiped. In 16 the nation answers we will not worship other gods. Yes that is a strong case to worship an angel. In 17 again they proclaim they will only worship the G-D who brought them out of Egypt an angel did not bring them out of Egypt this any five year old Jew knows yet this so call pagans scholar boyarin had no clue.
However Joshua was still not satisfied they still did not proclaim that they will not worship intermediaries. He tells the people in 19 you will not be able to serve intermediaries and G-D will not forgive them if they do. We see this in verse 20 it is talking about worshiping strange gods. In 21 the people reply no will worship the true creator without intermediaries.
Now lets see this morons logic. The true creator tells the Jews not to worship any other gods because they cannot help you. So according to this moron it means that they can help you if not it would be otiose (means fruitless the pagan is showing off) to say they cant help you.
Again we see over here that the Jews said they will not worship any other, not even an angel, but the true creator so besides this idiots rambling he still has not shown any ancient Jews who worshiped an angel. In fact we have shown just the opposite to these liars,
The amazing part about this is the whole five books of Moses speaks about how G-D is a forgiving G-D not only in the context of the exodus and this moron who the missionary claims is a scholar finds some verse in Joshua where it says he will not forgive you and concludes G-D does not forgive. Amazing scholarship.
Lets see the verses.
Genesis Chapter 4:7 Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."
Genesis Chapter 18:24 Peradventure there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep away and not forgive the place for the fifty righteous that are therein 26 And the LORD said: 'If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sake.'
Amazing again, the first book and already we find G-D is forgiving this any five year old knows.
Numbers Chapter 14:20 And the Lord said, "I have forgiven them in accordance with your word.
Psalms Chapter 130:4 For forgiveness is with You, in order that You be feared.
Yet this clown claims when it says that the angel will not forgive it means like the exodus.
“The comparison is rendered even stronger when we notice that exactly the same context is involved in both the Exodus and the Joshua verse, namely the expulsion of the Canaanites from the land of Israel and the warnings to the people of Israel to be worthy of this benefit and to worship YKWK, or their sin will not be forgiven at all.”
First off when the Jews were told than an angel would go with them was after the Exodus it had nothing to do with the Exodus. Second when Joshua was rebuking the Jewish nation was after the conquest of the lands of Canaanites. So it is not what the missionary claims a comparison there is no comparison. Joshua was warning them for a later period after his death. The warning from Joshua was about worshiping idols that the true creator will not forgive them not other sins.
The missionary wrote
It certainly seems as if this verse in Exodus can be read as equating Metatron to YKWK and therefore demanding worship for both figures.To this answer comes that “we” the Jews, through our leader Moses, already have declared that we do not even want him, Metatron, to be our guide in the desert, as the cited verse says: “If your face goes before us not.” In other words, the angelic regent was of such non importance that, far from considering him worthy of being worshipped, Moses would not even accept him as a guide.
In this, as in many other cases of such hermeneutical encounters, the min certainly seems to have the upper hand to begin with, for there are many scriptural texts that plausibly can be read as supporting the notion of an angelic vice-regent with many of the powers of God, or even the notion of a virtual second God.
My response
Actually he cannot find any verses to support this
The missionary wrote
Indeed, more than anything else, this very scriptural background may have given the greatest impetus to the various second-God theologies of Jews, including Logos, Memra, Sophia, Metatron, Son of Man, Son of God, and Christ.
My response
I have no idea what this guy is talking about there is no mention of Metatron logos memra Sophia in the whole Jewish Bible so how would Jews know to follow them.
The missionary wrote
Rav Idi, the clever Midrashist, exploits all the tricks in his bag in order to discredit the min’s quite straightforward interpretation of the verses in question: “Behold I send before you an angel, to watch over you on the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Be careful before him and obedient to him. Do not disobey him, for he will not forgive your sins, for My name is in him.” Although, to be sure, the second of these two verses presents difficulties, at the very least it would seem that this — fairly straightforward — translation does imply that this angel has the power to command and to remit sins (which he will not employ), as God has delegated to him something of divine power. Just as in the Joshua verse, we are told that God … “is a jealous God; He will not forgive your sins and your iniquities,” so here, Metatron is such a divine being too. The min quite reasonably suggests that one ought to pray to such a divine being, Metatron, on Rav Idi’s showing.
In order to escape this seeming ineluctable conclusion, Rav Idi proposes to read the verse as if saying, “Be careful before him and obedient to him. Do not confuse him with me, for he will not forgive your sins, for my name is in him.” Aside from the fact that this translation renders the verse considerably less coherent in its logic, it also makes this angel seem absolutely insignificant, hardly worthy of mention, to which Rav Idi answers (and this is his brilliant move) that indeed that is so. The Israelites have already registered their rejection of any interest in this insignificant angel when they insisted that God Himself must go before them and no other, thus dramatizing the rejection of the Son of Man theology, a rejection that the Rabbis themselves perform. (Boyarin, The Genealogy of Rabbinic Judaism; or, the Death and Resurrection of the Son of Man, p. 2-5)
My response
Before we go further this pagan claims that boyarin is the greatest Talmud scholar there is. Let me clarify now this is only to dumb Christians is he a great Talmud scholar in Judaism he is considered the dumbest of the dumb which I will demonstrate soon. The pagan writes about boyar in “Yes, Boyarin is an incredible scholar at the top of his field, and his willingness to say things like that even though he is Jewish is one indication why. The man has scholastic integrity”
The Christian is telling us to believe boyarin since he is the greatest scholar. Watch the hypocrite Christian I can show him not one but hundreds of Christian scholars who claim this trinity is of pagan origins.
"The doctrine that Jesus Christ the Son of God was God the son was decreed by worldly
and ecclesiastical powers. Men were forced to accept it at the point of the sword or else, Thus, the error of the trinity was propounded to the end that ultimately people believed it to be the truth. Thus Christianity became in essence like Babylonian heathenism, with only a veneer of Christian names."--- Forgers of the Word -1983 Victor Paul Wierwillehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Paul_Wierwille
Now will this same hypocrite nut case claim that Yes, Paul_Wierwille is an incredible scholar at the top of his field, and his willingness to say things like that even though he is Christian is one indication why. The man has scholastic integrity
"When we look back through the long ages of the reign of the Trinity . . . we shall perceive that few doctrines
have produced more unmixed evil." - (A Statement of Reasons for Not Believing the Doctrine of the Trinitarians Concerning the Nature of God and the Person of Christ); by Andrews Norton; 1833
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrews_Norton
Here is a messianic web site which claims the trinity is false. Christians love messianic guys thinking they believe like these pagan Christians.
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/trinity_art.html
Now will this same hypocrite nut case claim that Yes, Andrews Norton is an incredible scholar at the top of his field, and his willingness to say things like that even though he is Christian is one indication why. The man has scholastic integrity.
Here is another refutation of the trinity.
http://lhim.org/gladtidings/articles/3_Persons_in_1_Godhead_issue_71.pdf
Me move on with the dribble.
The missionary wrote
To this rather unflattering look at one example of how the Rabbis sought to counter the Biblical evidence that many Jews at one time believed, it should be added that Rav Idi’s so-called “brilliant move,” one that rests on a manipulation of the Hebrew text that “renders the verse considerably less coherent in its logic,” involves a colossal mistake, or perhaps another example of exegetical sleight of hand. This is because it wasn’t the name-bearing Angel that the Israelites rejected by saying they wanted God’s very presence/face to go before them. The promise that the Angel would go before them is given in Exodus 23, and no such complaint as Rav Idi mentions occurs at the time when this is announced. It is only after the incident of the golden-calf (Exodus 32), when God says He will not in fact go with them as previously announced (Exodus 33), which can only refer back to Exodus 23, that God says He will not accompany them but will send what is evidently an ordinary angel instead. For Moses this punishment is too severe, so he intercedes with God and beseeches Him to go up with them. Moses would rather die than for God not to go before them Himself. At the intercession of Moses, the Lord relents and renews the promise that He will go with them.
My response
Very funny this guy is, where in the verses does it say anything about an ordinary angel so who is using typical Midrashist, exploits now. In fact the reason they now don’t want the angel is because if you read the verses they never rejected the angel this is all made up by this boyarin who cant read Hebrew or English.
Here is Exodus - Chapter 23 he mentioned
Exodus - Chapter 23:20. Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. 21. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him. 22. For if you hearken to his voice and do all that I say, I will hate your enemies and oppress your adversaries 23. For My angel will go before you, and bring you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, and I will destroy them.
Now we will examine Exodus - Chapter 33
Exodus - Chapter 33:2. I will send an angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanites, the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites 3. to a land flowing with milk and honey; because I will not go up in your midst since you are a stiff necked people, lest I destroy you on the way 4. [When] the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his finery
So what did the people complain about not as this pagan claims about an angel it is because “I will not go up in your midst since you are a stiff necked people”
They never said they do not want the angel as this pagan claims a “simply an angel” as this idiot puts it.
All they wanted was the presence of the creator to go with them which Exodus - Chapter 23 did not say that it wont go with them. Over here in Exodus - Chapter 33 since it said my presence wont go with them that is why they complained. This any five year old Jew knows yet he calls this boy the biggest Talmud scholar we see what passes for scholarship for these pagans.
As far as Rav Idi he was just playing with this pagan which any Talmud scholar worth two cents would know that’s what the Rabbis did with these godless ones.
The missionary wrote
In other words, if the sin of the golden-calf led to a change from the name-bearing Angel going before them to simply an angel rather than God Himself going before them, something Moses found intolerable, then it is evident that the Angel is God. So in the sweep of the entire narrative the Angel is shown to be the very presence or face of God.
And this is exactly how the prophet Isaiah presents the matter when reflecting back on the Lord’s prior dealings with His people, for in the following passage he refers to the Angel of the Exodus, the one who saved them, as “the Angel of His presence/face”:
7 I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, the praises of the Lord,According to all that the Lord has granted us,And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,Which He has granted them according to His compassionAnd according to the abundance of His lovingkindnesses.8 For He said, “Surely, they are My people,Sons who will not deal falsely.”So He became their Savior.9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,And the angel of His presence saved them;In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.10 But they rebelledAnd grieved His Holy Spirit;Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,He fought against them.11 Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses.Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock?Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,12 Who caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses,Who divided the waters before them to make for Himself an everlasting name,13 Who led them through the depths?Like the horse in the wilderness, they did not stumble;14 As the cattle which go down into the valley,The Spirit of the Lord gave them rest.So You led Your people,To make for Yourself a glorious name. (Isaiah 63:7-14)
My response
First off I don’t know what this imbecile is talking about there was no angel of the exodus this every little kid knows from kindergarten up and this is who Christians and messianic call the biggest Talmud scholar. In fact every Passover we say not with an angel.
"The L-rd took us out of Egypt," not through an angel, not through a seraph and not through a messenger. The Holy One, blessed be He, did it in His glory by Himself!”
Second Isaiah is talking about the period from the exodus until the exile. He is saying that the true creator has sent his angles to help and guide them through all their suffering not to let them be destroyed. In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. So as we see it is not talking about no angel of exodus this is talking about the clouds that saved the Jews from the Egyptians and all angels that saved the Jews. 14 So You led Your people, To make for Yourself a glorious name.
So it was the true creator that led them not as this pagan claims
Exodus - Chapter 14:19. Then the angel of God, who had been going in front of the Israelite camp, moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved away from in front of them and stood behind them.
II Kings - Chapter 19:35. And it came to pass on that night that an angel of the Lord went out and slew one hundred eighty-five thousand of the camp of Assyria. And they arose in the morning, and behold they were all dead corpses
Daniel - Chapter 3:28. Nebuchadnezzar cried out and said, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, Who sent His angel and rescued His servants, who trusted Him, deviated from the command of the king, and risked their lives in order not to worship or prostrate themselves to any god except to their God
Lets see this pagan Nebuchadnezzar knew not to worship an angel and admitted that it was the true creator that sent the angel yet this moron claims to be an orthodox Jew cannot see this. It is funny how these hypocritical Christians acted when I claimed that this boyrin was no orthodox Jew. They ridiculed and said who am I to say he is not if he says so. Well the Christians claim that all the atrocities committed by Christians in the past they were not real Christians. Well we ask the same question who is this pagan Christian to say they were not real Christians. They read his bible the same way he does who is to say their interpretation is wrong and his is right. The Christian will claim well find him where it says in his book that teaches the violence that they committed. Well read the christian books and see the hate being taught in them. http://thejewishhome.org/counter/AntiJewishNT.pdf
Here we see the true creators book saying hate brings to murder however did the so called inspired writers of these pagan books know this. NO.
Deuteronomy Chapter 19: 11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die; and he flee into one of these cities;
What the Rabbis say.
But if a man hates his fellow [and lies in wait for him…]: Through this man’s hatred of his fellow, he comes to “lie in wait for him.” From here our Rabbis derived the maxim: If a man transgresses a minor commandment, he will ultimately transgress a major commandment. [Here,] since he transgressed the command: “You shall not hate your brother in your heart” (Lev. 19:17), he ultimately came to shed blood. This is why it says here, “But if a man hates his fellow,” for it should have written only: “But if a man rises up and lies in wait for his fellow and strikes him mortally.” - [Sifrei]
It seems these so called inspired writers didn’t listen to the Rabbis.
The real question is the Christians claim that their false god showed up every where in the Jewish Bible he came to meet Abraham he came to wrestle with Jacob I even read on a Christian web site it was their god that came in the clouds by the Exodus. Amazingly their god couldn’t find one opportunity to come or even send a prophet when these not real Christians were committing all their atrocities. It would seem that their god sanctioned them. In fact their god did sanction them. This is proven by the Christians claim that when people called their god god he did not respond by saying no don’t call me a god. This is their proof that he claimed to be a god. So the silence of their god during all the atrocities committed by not real Christians is proof he sanctioned them.
The missionary wrote
A final passage in Zechariah that will be mentioned here relevant to the deity of the Angel of the Lord is the following, where the Lord declares:
6 “In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And in that day I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:6-9)
In the above passage the Lord says that a day is coming when the weak will become strong. The way the prophet says this is striking: He says that the feeble of Jerusalem “will be like David,” and the house of David “will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them.” What is so striking about this is that the statement “will be like God” is set in apposition to “like the Angel of the Lord before them.” An appositional statement is one where one statement follows another, with the latter serving as the explanatory equivalent of the first. In other words, according to Zechariah 12:9, “to be like God” is the equivalent of and means precisely to be “like the Angel of the Lord.”
My response
Has anyone taught this imbecile math. If A=B and B=C than A=C any first grader knows this so if it is saying that David which we will call A= and the house of David “will be like God, so if the angel called “B” of the L-rd is like G-D “C” than David is like the L-rd so is a god to. This of course is ludicrous like all this idiots ramblings. In fact the verse says explicitly and the house of David will belike God so why doesn’t this moron claim that we should worship the house of David he is like god.
Actually this is the correct translation of the verse which does not say any thing about an angel being G-D
Zechariah 12:8. On that day the Lord shall protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the weakest of them shall be, on that day, like David. And the house of David shall be like angels, like the angel of the Lord before them.
The missionary wrote
When Zechariah says the house of David would be “like the Angel of the Lord before them,” the final words recall those of the Exodus, where God promises that the Angel who bears His name would go “before you,” i.e. Israel.
This means for all my opponents appeal to Zechariah one in an effort to deny the deity of the Angel, it is clearly out of touch with what Zechariah in fact taught. Zechariah was not a unitarian, and that’s why Muslims are only giving lip-service when they say they believe in all the prophets and all the previous books. In fact they don’t, and the testimony of Zechariah is only the tip of the Old Testament ice-berg that demonstrates this to be the case.
My response
For this ignoramuses information Zachariah never taught that, relating a dream and relating that the angel said or G-D said is not a teaching. This is a teaching. Deuteronomy Chapter 4:39 know this day, and lay it to thy heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else.
This is also a teaching.
Deuteronomy Chapter 4:39 know this day, and lay it to thy heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and upon the earth beneath; there is none else.
Deuteronomy Chapter 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me; I kill, and I make alive; I have wounded, and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of My hand.
Isaiah Chapter 40:25 To whom then will ye liken Me, that I should be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and see: who hath created these? He that bringeth out their host by number, He calleth them all by name; by the greatness of His might, and for that He is strong in power, not one faileth.
Isaiah Chapter 43:10 Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.
Isaiah Chapter 44:6 Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God. 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb: I am the LORD, that maketh all things; that stretched forth the heavens alone; that spread abroad the earth by Myself;
Isaiah Chapter 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens, He is God; that formed the earth and made it, He established it, He created it not a waste, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Actually this pagan has not shown one Jew who worshiped an angel. To make this claim “This was well understood by ancient Jews, as the later efforts of the Talmudic rabbis to suppress this teaching among Jews demonstrates.” is of course a bold faced lie.
Let us examine exactly what Zechariah teaches.
Zechariah - Chapter 3:7. So said the Lord of Hosts: If you walk in My ways, and if you keep My charge, you, too, shall judge My house, and you, too, shall guard My courtyards, and I will give you free access among these who stand by.
Hosts means master of legions including angels.
Zechariah - Chapter 14:9. And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one
Does this sound like he is teaching to worship an angel I don’t think so. His own Christian web sites identify the Hebrew malach as a messenger. Only Christians worship messengers.
http://christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t005.html
The word “angel” actually comes from the Greek word aggelos, which means “messenger.” The matching Hebrew word mal'akhas the same meaning.
Now let us examine what is going on here exactly, he claims with all his verses later he will bring more to show that the verses say an angel is like G-D
However next these morons will say that Jews used to worship a rock and this was suppressed by later Rabbis. What proof would he bring, from this verse.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 32:4. The deeds of the [Mighty] Rock are perfect, for all His ways are just; a faithful God, without injustice He is righteous and upright
Ezekiel Chapter 33:14 And when I say of the wicked man, "You shall surely die," and he repents of his sin and performs justice and righteousness,
15 The wicked man will return the pledge, he will repay the theft; in the statutes of life he walked, not to commit injustice-he will surely live, he will not die.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 32:40 For I raise up My hand to heaven, and say, 'As I live forever.'
According to this pagans logic the wicked man who repents is a god. Well it says that G-D lives forever and it says he will not die meaning he will live forever so he must be a god.
Next he will be saying G-D has hands feet etc all from the verses in the Jewish Bible.
His own Christian web sites refute this. Read what the Christian wrote below I can bring many Christian web sites which state the same. What he is saying if G-D says something so what we read that is contrary to that is not to be taken literally. G-D many places tells the Jews do not worship others besides me. G-D says he is alone non other is to worshiped so wherever it says the L-rd said and an angel said etc like this pagan writes it certainly does not mean we worship an angel against the command of the true creator.
http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage.asp?articleid=4422
The fact that body parts are often used to describe the Lord does not mean that He has a physical body. Certainly, if the reader will only consider a literal understanding of the words, then a contradiction is present. However, having been told in Scripture that God is not flesh and bones as we are (John 4:24, compare Luke 24:39), then it ought to be apparent that the references to various body parts is not intended to be understood literally.
http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20030223.htm
http://creation.com/does-god-have-body-parts
If we say we take Genesis ‘literally’, doesn’t that mean insisting that these descriptions are literal, too? And if not, doesn’t this undermine our claim that Genesis is meant to be taken literally?
The author’s intention
To answer these questions we must first consider the intention of the author—in this case Moses, under the direction of God’sHoly Spirit.1 It is clear that Moses’ purpose is to tell us what God did on these occasions in a way that we can understand, and not to give us any physical pen-pictures of God. Moses does this, in the examples above, by portraying God’s actions in terms of their human counterparts; namely voice, sight, companionship, work and satisfaction.
Now let us touch on the subject of the verse in Deuteronomy Chapter 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. Christian perverters constantly claim that this does not really mean one it means a group and their example is this verse. Genesis Chapter 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh. They use this as a reference that a group can be called one. This is of course erroneous as explained by this own missionaries web site http://www.studytoanswer.net/judaism/uniplurality.html .Imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three. One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream
Here the pagan is explaining his insanity that one river representing his pagan god begets two baby gods which of course are equal to his one pagan god.
It is true two become one flesh three become a family a hundred families become one community ten communities become one state etc. however according to Christian doctrine their god was one who became three this you find no where in the Jewish Bible. In fact in the Jewish Bible every time one is used when it means a group it mentions the one of the group. One day, one place, one language, one people, one nation one camp, one herd etc. The missionaries also claim it should have used the word yachid if it meant only one. Well than these imbeciles would have read to us this verse which does say yachid Genesis Chapter 22: 2 And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' they would have said ha it cant be one Isaac was not the only son so this proves yachid does not mean only one to the exclusion of any other. So no matter what was used those who want to follow falsities will follow.
It is funny how Christians claim that Jews worshiped idol in the desert. They claim their god came down in manifestation as a man so how do they know it was an idol maybe it was their god came down in manifestation of an animal. They are always accusing the muslims of limiting their god that he cant come down as man. So they ask me well did the animal claim to be their god. Lets analyze this Christians claim that their gods disciples would not worship their god if they were not 100% sure that he was their god. So how do they know this well its common sense they say why would you worship some one if you are not 100% sure that he is god. Yet these Christians are claiming that millions of Jews were worshiping a god who they were not sure he was a god? So now years later these idiots say lets follow the Jews and worship a man. They claim the first followers of their god and who called him a god were Jews. Funny how they don’t learn in the desert it was the Pharisees who were the Levites who said don’t worship the calf. Now the Pharisees said not to worship this man do the Christians listen, No.
Here is a qoute from The Rabbis web site.
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no Gd. [Isaiah 44:6]
When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, I am the first,' it means that Gd has no father. If Gd had a father, Isaiah would have quoted Gd's word as, 'I am the second.' When Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'I am the last,' it means that Gd has no literal son. If Gd had a son, Isaiah would have told us that Gd said, 'I am the second-to-last.' And when Isaiah tells us that Gd said, 'Besides me there is no Gd,'it means that Gd does not share being Gd with any other Gd, or demi-Gd, or semi-Gd, or persons. If Gd shared or would later share Gd's Gd-ness with Jesus, Isaiah would have told us that Gd's words were, 'Besides me and the son that will come after me, there is no Gd.'
This is why Gd told us in the Ten Commandments, in Exodus 20:3, 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' Even if you think they are gods, you cannot have them before Gd. You do not pray to them in order to get to Gd, and you do not pray in their names.Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips. [Psalm 16:4]
Christians may tell us, 'Behold Your Gd,' but the last time we heard something similar was in Exodus 32:4, when the mixed multitude pointed to the Golden Calf and said, 'Eileh elohecha -- these are your gods.'
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