Yahweh's justice vs Allah's deceit

I would like to express my disagree with several Christians who believe that we should not object to Allah's scheming because there is supposedly Old or New Testament parallels.

Firstly, one Christian "Minoria" accuses Shamoun, Wood and Rogers of never addressing these objections.

Just to make a correction, Sam has addressed these objections, some places include:

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/does_god_deceive.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_2cor4_4.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_deceiver.html

http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/abu_bakr_fear.html

I am pretty sure they also addressed them on ABN forecasts.

As Sam told me this is comparing apples and oranges.

Personally I disagree with Denis Giron and James White (if they personally choose not to use this exact objection). More on this in a minute.

But firstly I think it's inappropriate and  incorrect to infer that James White is calling Sam Shamoun "dishonest" like Snow has speculated. First he could just ring up Dr. White directly and ask him and record it for everyone and secondly if you read the quote more carefully here is what it says:
"This text is often cited as evidence of some kind of dishonesty on Allah’s part, but THE HONEST RECOGNIZES that just as God sent a lying spirit into the mouths of false prophets as a means by which He brought just punishment on those who rebelled against Him (1 Kings 22:23), and JUST AS the New Testament warns those who refuse to love the truth will be caused to love a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:10-11), THIS TEXT COULD WELL BE SAYING that when people scheme against Allah and His ways, they will find Allah significantly better at that activity than they are.” (Page 114)."
The most convincing answer is in the immediate context of 3:54, the scheming is only applied to the disbelieving enemies of Jesus. So indeed the honest reader does recognize the text could well be read this way, but the more precise question is: does it have to be read this way in context with the overall Quranic theology?

The answer is simply: no

The Islamic Tradition and Gospel of Barnabas point out that a group of believers were deceived by the crucifixion, they believe Jesus really died and later was raised. In other words not merely disbelievers who were punished, but believers who were tricked and duped by Allah into thinking their own prophet and Messiah had died and later when they saw him and therefore concluded he was resurrected, as Allah or the Son of Allah.

But Shamoun expounds on more of the differences in his articles. And I will agree with Shamoun and Wood, until Minoria can demonstrate an exact parallel. Also take into account that White is only commenting on 3:54 as it appears in this context, and not the entire Quranic depiction of Allah's scheming, so he could well be agreeing with Shamoun, outside of this immediate context. I agree with White that nothing in the immediate context suggests Allah's scheming is applied to anyone other than the enemies of Jesus, and even goes so far as to say Allah caused Jesus to die and raise and vindicated Jesus. But that doesn't tell us the over-all Quranic theology. And secondly if you take the view that 3:55 does not refer to Jesus death, then we may not conclude that Allah has vindicated Jesus from his enemies false charges, including the one that they had killed him! (4:157).

3 comments:

  1. From Minoria:

    Just read the article.Only 2 of the links worked but it confirms what I had stated before,and nothing else.Others have also.

    1.All I stated was the Koran and Bible say the wicked are deceived by the Deity.
    2.Nobody ever said the Bible says believers were deceived.I never stated it.

    So that is all the context.In that context that is the parallel:both books say God deceives the wicked.A lot of people only know 1) but not 2) because David and Sam don't express themselves clearly from the beginning.In pedagogy one has to sometimes repeat the same thing time after time,not just now and then,to be an effective communicator.I have heard their videos where they talk of "Allah as deceiver" and if they did clarify then it was either midway or only once at the beginning(and all forgot about it)and so they weren't pedagogic.

    In the 2 links I was able to read no mention was made of 2).If one wants to argue against the Koran using 1) and 2),it's ok with me,but repeat the essential points 1) and 2) at the beginning of the article,otherwise one is not being an effective communicator.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Hi,

    I also checked out a David Wood article on Allah as deceiver:

    http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/deceptive_god.htm

    He never states 1) and 2) side by side for clarity nowhere,and he should have,so 100% of readers finish thinking:"Allah deceives but the God of the Bible NEVER deceives,under any circumstances."Do you see my point?Probably Wood wasn't aware of all the details of the situation.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hello again:

    Here are the 2 articles(that you set up links to) by Shamoun where he doesn't state 1) and 2) side by side with all the Biblical verses,like the Biblical ones where God deceives the evil(not even 1 citation),so clarity was lost.And 100% of readers finish thinking:"Allah deceives but the God of the Bible NEVER deceives,under any circumstances."Do you see my point again?

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/abu_bakr_fear.html

    http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_best_deceiver.htm

    I have also read this other article by Sam and again,the same situation(no 1) and 2):

    http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_deceiver.htm

    However Shamoun addresses the situation in "Does Yahweh really deceive?":

    http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/does_god_deceive.htm

    There he states that God does not directly but INDIRECTLY deceive the evil but allowing bad angels to deceive them:He wrote:

    "The foregoing should make it apparent that the Holy Bible is not asserting that God is the direct cause of deceptions or lies.

    Rather, Yahweh is the indirect cause in the sense that he has decreed and permitted that liars and deceivers will deceive in order to accomplish God’s perfect and righteous will."

    1.That raises the question of the logic in a God doing that,why make the situation WORSE?

    2.We know HITLER started by persecuting the Jews in Germany(50% of the 600,000 left the country),and later he became worse(till he finally decided to kill them all).I am not saying God gave permission to demons to inspire Hitler's genocide,but it is a possibility according to the Bible.But again,where is the reason in all that,in making things WORSE?

    ReplyDelete