I have been away and I didn’t have time to respond to the rebuttals of several people who have responded to my challenge open theism. I will begin addressing Tim and analyzing his statements.
This Tim writes in response to Derek Adams, Tim states: “The Bible nowhere says that God is outside time. It says that he is eternal - but that can be defined as everlasting - which is the idea of going on forever in time”.
Tim argues that the Bible doesn’t mention God existing outside in response to Derek asking Tim, If God lives in time, how is he God? Well on the contrary Tim makes the claim that God is everlasting in which I don’t disagree with.
But Tim expands on the concept of everlasting as going on forever in time. Question for Tim since he challenges Derek Adams to demonstrate within the Bible that defines God being timeless and living outside, same question can be asked about his statement where does the Bible define everlasting as going on forever in time?
Tim concludes on this issue by saying: “Summary: Bible doesn't say that God is outside of time; hence we can't say He is timeless with any assurance”
If Tim is incapable of showing from the Bible that God being everlasting means going on forever in time then we can’t say with any assurance that God being everlasting means going on forever in time. .
Hello there - thanks for your comments.
ReplyDeleteMy question to this is - who is the weight on to establish their case? In normal English when you say something lives forever - it means it goes on living forever. This concept of being 'outside time' - well no one can even describe what that means. There is no analogy from nature or even from any other source of what this really means. Is 'being outside of time' even a coherent sentence? What does it mean? Being outside of sequence? Does one mean to say that God is frozen? Not living or dynamic?
Calvinists have an escape word when trying to write about this. Because it just seems beyond logic to explain 'outside time' - they use the term - Mystery. I'm sorry, it does get you out of jail here. You could say anything and justify it with 'it is a mystery'.
No more important than this is the following. I don't mean to be ungracious in my comments. It is just that I often see Open Theism described as hereticaly , abberant etc - when it doesn't break any item of any of the historical creeds, is supportable from Scripture (as Christians we have to be real and realise that we don't interpret Sceipture all in the same way). So, I don't intend to 'convert' you to Open Theism. But I am concerned that it is rightly described. It is a legitimate form of understanding God within the realm of Evangelicalism.
Thanks
Tim if there was such a reality of being outside time, and as you know, we are finite creatures that actually exist within a time and space realm, isnt it conceivable and more than likely we wouldn't have an analogy from nature regarding a timeless reality?
ReplyDeleteAlso interesting you demand an analogy from nature regarding this concept, on the contrary can you give me an analogy from nature that has spaceless, immaterial objects that happen to be distinct from each other?
That very questions sounds incoherent, but according to our theology the persons within the godhead don't occupy space but happen to be distinct from each other and distinction presupposes space.
Also the term mystery being a get out of jail free card isn't also used for that purpose. The bible speaks of God's nature being beyond comprehension which we would interpret as a mystery because there isn't anything in nature we can use as an analogy to even describe his nature.
1 corinthians 2:7 speaks of God's wisdom being a mystery, since that is the case how much more is the very state of his existence?
Interesting passage 2 perter 3:8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
Time question for you since you believe that God exist in time can you describe to me the state of time that God actually exist in?
Is the state of time that God exist in similar the very
state of time we exist in? If not, please give me an analogy from nature.
If yes, why does 2 peter have a distinction of time
between God and human?
Even if you argue that the passage still implies that God eventually exist in time, there is still an uncertain definition to what exactly that state of time.
And also my argument still stands, if you concede to the point that God exist in a realm of time distinction from ours. Because am arguing that God exist outside of our time and space realm.
"Tim if there was such a reality of being outside time, and as you know, we are finite creatures that actually exist within a time and space realm, isnt it conceivable and more than likely we wouldn't have an analogy from nature regarding a timeless reality? "
ReplyDeleteThe point I am making is that the weight of proof falls on those who say God is timeless. There is no evidence for this anywhere - so people who hold to that position have to show evidence for it.
"Also the term mystery being a get out of jail free card isn't also used for that purpose. The bible speaks of God's nature being beyond comprehension which we would interpret as a mystery because there isn't anything in nature we can use as an analogy to even describe his nature."
Yes God has mysterious aspects to his being. However, if one is going to hold a position on what God is like - you have to back it up by evidence - you can't say - this is my argument - and I can't argue for the reason why it is - it is a mystery! I am saying that Scripture and reason point to the fact that God, like all other beings is in the flow of time. Again the weight of proof falls on those who say that God is outside of time.
"1 corinthians 2:7 speaks of God's wisdom being a mystery, since that is the case how much more is the very state of his existence?" Okay then. But you obviously hold positions on what God is like. What is His nature is. Are you saying that you shouldn't be articulating your view? That you shouldn't say anything about what God is like? I don't agree. I think you are entitled to your view on God and you are entitled to express it. You shouldn't be stmyied from doing so, by the statement that it is all a mystery. Same with me.
"Interesting passage 2 perter 3:8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day."
I'm not saying that God's experience of time is the same as ours. But it is clear that He is 'in sequence'. And that I believe is the essence of time - this happened, then that happened etc etc.
Realm of time? Not sure what that means. I'd imagine each human experiences time somewhat differently. And we ourselves experience time differently at times. Picture 1 hour spent doing what you love versus 1 hour spent talking with your most boring relative. You'll have a totally different sensation. However, in both examples we are still passing through events in time. Same with God I believe.
Thanks