Showing posts with label Bart Erhman. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Bart Erhman. Show all posts

Memo From Bart Erhman To All Muslims and Unitarians

Bart Erhman has now officially on record conceded Jesus is even divine in the synoptic gospels especially when taking all of the evidence as a whole, as a collective which is exactly what Trinitarians do. This is a principle of standard biblical exegesis and hermeneutics found in any seminary text book providing systematic theology. It is no longer possible to argue that Jesus is a Muslim Prophet from the Synoptic Gospels, rather as Erhman has pointed out these gospels divinize Jesus in various ways, each conveying a different view point which is utterly prohibited by Islam as shirk. Erhman may charge that these different views are contradictory where as we could see them as complimentary, but one thing still remains: How on earth do the earliest accounts we have of Jesus stray so far from Islamic Issa, when Allah promised the followers of Issa complete dominance and victory until the end? It really does blow the mind.

Reposted from Bart Erhman's blog

This, I believe, will be my final post on an issue that changed my mind about while doing the research for How Jesus Became God. This last one is a big one – for me, at least. And it’s not one that I develop at length in the book in any one place, since it covers a span of material. Here’s the deal:

Until a year ago I would have said – and frequently did say, in the classroom, in public lectures, and in my writings – that Jesus is portrayed as God in the Gospel of John but not, definitely not, in the other Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. I would point out that only in John did Jesus say such things as “Before Abraham, I am” (8:58; taking upon himself the name of God, as given to Moses in Exodus 3); his Jewish opponents knew full well what he was saying: they take up stones to stone him. Later he says “I and the Father are one” (10:30) Again, the Jews break out the stones. Later he tells his disciples, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” (14:9). And in a later prayer to God he asks him to “glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world was created” (17:5).

None of these sayings, or anything like them, can be found in the other canonical Gospels. John is clearly portrayed as a divine being in John, but only in John (I would have argued).

Sometimes students, audience members, or readers would object, that even if the other Gospels do not flat-out *call* Jesus God, his divinity is implied in other ways. For example, he does amazing miracles that surely only a divine figure could do; and he forgives people’s sins, which surely is a prerogative of God alone; and he receives worship as people bow down before him, which surely indicates that he welcomes divine honors.

I would typically respond to these comments by arguing that all of these things are completely compatible with human, not just divine, authority. (I still hold to this view, even though I have a different conclusion now about the Christology of Matthew, Mark, and Luke).

With respect to Jesus’ ability to do miracles: in the Hebrew Bible the prophets Elijah and Elisha did fantastic miracles through the power of God – including healing the sick and raising the dead – and in the New Testament so did the apostles Peter and Paul; but that did not make any of them divine. They were humans.

With respect to the forgiveness of sins: when Jesus forgives sins, he never says “I forgive you,” as God might say, but “your sins are forgiven,” which means that God has forgiven your sins. This prerogative for pronouncing sins forgiven was otherwise reserved for Jewish priests in honor of sacrifices worshipers made at the temple. Jesus may be claiming a priestly, not a divine prerogrative.

With respect to people bowing down to him in worship: kings were worshiped – even in the Bible (Matt. 18:26) — by veneration and obeisance, just as God was. Here Jesus may be accepting the worship due to him as the future king.

As a result, none of these things, in and of itself, indicates clearly that Jesus is divine. One could argue that the three things taken together as a group makes a stronger case for Jesus’ divinity: Jesus has the role of prophet, priest, and king – not just one thing or the other. And together these things suggest he is something more than human.

But more than that, in doing my research and thinking harder and harder about the issue, when I (a) came to realize that the Gospels not only attributed these things to him, but also understood him to be adopted as the Son of God at his baptism (Mark 1:9-11), or to have been made the son of God by virtue of the fact that God was literally his father, in that it was the Spirit of God that made the virgin Mary pregnant (Luke 1:35), and (b) realized what “adoption” meant to people in the Roman world (as indicated in a previous post), I finally yielded. These Gospels do indeed think of Jesus as divine. Being made the very Son of God who can heal, cast out demons, raise the dead, pronounce divine forgiveness, receive worship together suggests that even for these Gospels Jesus was a divine being, not merely a human.

But in a different sense from John. (And in a different sense from one another.)

In some ways, much of my book is predicated on the idea that when someone says that Jesus is God, you always have to ask “in what sense?” John’s sense is different from Mark’s and Mark’s is different from Luke’s and Luke’s is different from Paul’s and so on.

For Mark, Jesus was adopted to be God’s son at his baptism. Before that, he was a mere mortal. For Luke, Jesus was conceived by God and so was literally God’s son, from the point of his conception. (In Luke Jesus did not exist *prior* to that conception to the virgin – his conception is when he came into existence). For John, Jesus was a pre-existent divine being – the Word of God who was both with God and was God at the beginning of all things – who became a human. Here he is not born of a virgin and he is not adopted by God at the baptism (neither event is narrated in John – and could not be, given, John’s Christology).

So yes, now I agree that Jesus is portrayed as a divine being, a God-man, in all the Gospels. But in very different ways, depending on which Gospel you read.
Bart Erhman had the intellectual capacity to genuinely follow his mind all the way closer to conservative (and moderate) scholarship. Even though I don't fully agree with Erhman I have to respect his integrity in this regard, he has shown keen willingness to go where sound reason takes him. Bart Erhman now believes the Synoptic Gospels present Jesus as Divine, do you believe this Muslims and Unitarians? Are you going to continuously pretend the Synoptics present Jesus as a Unitarian Muslim? Will there ever be a point where we can stop distorting the gospels to try to turn Jesus into Issa the Muslim and rather just admit the Gospel has a different conception of Jesus? 

Paul Williams lost his MarBalls, perhaps Bart Erhman found them

It turns out, Paul Williams who use to be the director of Muslim Debate Initiative has announced MDI (among all of PW's close friends) were well aware of his homosexual status.

Paul however informs us (on the same page):


While Paul incorrectly accuses me of posting pictures from his Facebook (one of the pictures is from his blog, and another from Paul Martin's FB page), I did however link to multiple comments and pictures directly of his on his public Facebook which he later withdrew from public access. In other words his Facebook was set to public settings, so that all could behold his boastful ties to his homosexuality. What these pictures and comments constituted was what Paul would label: "a public act of homosexuality", some of these pictures and comments are still available.

The fact of the matter is that Paul Williams has been involved with Paul Martin for quite sometime, recently they had even been travelling together, staying at the same hotels, going to the same mosque, drinking alcohol on multiple occasions, they are a well known exclusive couple on there Facebook page and refer to one another as: "my bunny, stunning, hot" etc. What this means is we have public evidence that Paul & Paul for along while have been involved in a homosexual relationship and even declared this in pubic. What resulted from this? Paul Williams was forced to retreat his Facebook page back into the land of the anonymous. Yet Paul condemned this type of cowardice on Yahya Snow's blog when he was provoked:


Amen! Let us pray PW comes out of the closet and restores his Facebook to it's original state, so all can see Paul's relationship with Paul. Paul wants us to think he has been an inactive homosexual for quite sometime, therefore it's time to come out the closet Paul.

To top this off, contrary to Paul's statement, multiple associates of mine (if need be) can confirm I emailed Paul and offered to take down my post, as I copied and pasted the email to them before I sent it and still have the e-mail in my sent folder.

Despite all this, Paul maintains he did not leave Islam because of his homosexuality:


Paul Williams believes homosexuality, heterosexuality and Islam are compatible as-long as these homosexual acts are done in the privacy of your own home or space. Yahya Snow agrees with Paul:
"James, Paul doesn't need to phone a world-renowned scholar to ask about what Islam teaches about homosexuality - he knows. He's not stupid."
As a Muslim (and even since), Paul has repeatedly asserted he will not debate fundamentalists, in which he includes Dr. James White:


The irony is that while Paul may not debate fundamentalists, yet he will certainly join the religion of fundamentalists who kill apostates and homosexuals upon leaving the religion of fundamentalism, especially when naughty public acts of homosexuality have been displayed.

However contrary to Paul Williams, it turns out (and not for the first time), just like Sam Shamoun and David Wood were vindicated by Islamic Scholarship, James White has been vindicated by historical and biblical scholarship.

Indeed Bart Erhman, a leading Bible Scholar himself has significantly changed his view and is now confessing the earliest family members and disciples of Jesus thought of him as bearing a divine status. Erhman no longer takes the view that Jesus divinity was established between 90-96 C.E.

Lets hope that Paul Williams doesn't cling to primitive fundamentalist Islamic notions and chooses to take a ride on the Biblical scholarship train that he himself advertises and approves of on his own blog.

In summary: It just keeps getting worse for Williams, first he lost his religion, then he was caught in a homosexual relationship, then two fundamentalists David Wood and Sam Shamoun were vindicated by Islamic Scholarship, and now James White is vindicated by Bart Erhman!

Here are some closing comments for Paul Williams:


I couldn't agree more Paul!

How ironic!

By coincidence, Bart Erhman has become one of the leading opponents of Islamic Theology. Here's his view in a nutshell:
  1. Jesus was crucified
  2. Jesus family and followers saw his post-mortem appearances
  3. Jesus family and earliest disciples viewed him as divine (before Paul and John)
Paul do you believe Jesus was crucified? 
Do you believe Jesus followers envisioned him after his death?
Do you believe Jesus family and disciples conceived of Jesus in a divine sense?
Or are you a flaming fundamentalist, Paul Williams?


UPDATE


I would like to thank Paul Williams who posts an interview which took place with Bart Erhman:



Just in case Paul Williams missed what Erhman said:
9:21-10 "But then, some of them [disciples] came to think that Jesus had been raised from the dead, and that was the beginning of the idea that Jesus himself was divine the logic was that, these disciples had visions of Jesus, they, they saw him afterwards, and they concluded that he was no longer dead, but he obviously wasn't with them anymore, he was no where to be seen, so where is he? He'd been taken up into heaven, and so the disciples came to think that he had been divinized, he'd been one of these people who was taken up and made divine. And at that point then, as soon as the disciples came to believe in the Resurrection, they came to think Jesus in some sense was God."
This is theologically devastating news for Islam. Allah who raised Jesus to himself, to save Jesus from death, accidentally ended up causing a group of Jesus disciples to believe Jesus was divinized and in some sense the same as God! In other words, Allah didn't just trick the enemies of Jesus, by virtue of deceiving the enemies of Jesus, Allah also tricked the very disciples of Jesus, who thought Jesus was divine because of his death, Resurrection and ascension! Allah then causes this false ideology to succeed for 600 years as divine truth and then decides to correct his initial error.

Paul Williams for the love of Allah, abandon your fundamentalist beliefs and follow where the evidence directs us!

UPDATE: Muslim Objections


Some Muslims, including my friend Nazam and Yahya (along with PW), are claiming to very offended, that such news is worthy of reporting:



Is The Original New Testament Lost? :: A Dialogue with Dr. Bart Ehrman & Dr. Daniel Wallace



I recommend only you real bible geeks watch this.

If you truly new to the topic, then the introduction periods will help you, but you won't be able to follow the rest easily.