Greetings J.S.
In the very least it seems what you are doing is problematic. Why? To allude to the exception to the rule in the Scripture, rather than the standard rule itself laid out by Scripture explicitly (on how one must be saved e.g. Romans 10) seems irresponsible.
I advise you to build doctrine on a house made of brick not sand my friend.
However lets investigate further. You said:
"It is because of the Good Thief incident,he certainly NEVER ACCEPTED Jesus as God,or Messiah or personal SAVIOUR. He jsut asked FOR HELP."I highlighted the contradiction in bald so you can read your comment again. If the thief on the cross asked Jesus for help then Jesus became the recipient of his cry for physical and spiritual salvation and restoration and only hope for the after life in a distressing situation. After all how could someone who is dying alongside the thief been able to help and restore him and grant him eternal paradise unless that person was more than he appeared to be? They were both being tortured and mutilated to death in the most severely embarrassing manner, how could Jesus possibly help him? He was nailed to a cross! Hence the thief asking for "help" is an outward sign of an inward spiritual realization, that Jesus could rescue and save him, especially his soul.
This shows us our thief here had undergone an inner spiritual epiphany that his colleague (to the other side of Jesus) had not. He realized Jesus alone was the unique savior who had the omnipotent ability to grant him paradise making him God, Messiah and Savior. Further more the Scripture teaches us that no one can receive this kind of epiphany without first having a spiritual transformation:
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13And:
""Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." - John 3:5-6Finally lets look at the context for important pieces of key information you may have missed:
And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." And they cast lots to divide his garments. And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him, saying, "He saved others; let him save himself, if he is the Christ of God, his Chosen One!" The soldiers also mocked him, coming up and offering him sour wine and saying, "If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!" There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews." One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." [Luke 23:34-43]If you read carefully the parts I have highlighted here you will see the Thief was well aware of the banter between the various individuals. The thief heard Jesus refer to God as his own personal Father, showing him Jesus was God's Son. He even heard Jesus instruct the Father to forgive his enemies, showing that Jesus had some type of divine authority. He heard the people confess that Jesus had saved others, and shown awareness that he was conceivably some kind of Christ (Messiah). He had seen the sign above Jesus and heard the Jews and Romans speak of Jesus as a possible King of Jews. He confessed Jesus was sinless and made no crime. He rebuked his fellow criminal, by instructing him to fear God when the sinful man had sought to beg Jesus for physical deliverance. And to finish it off he openly requests Jesus to remember him (showing us Jesus is the omnipotent Lord of the heaven and judgement) in his kingdom (note Jesus kingdom, not merely "God's"). In conclusion this thief understood Jesus to be the Lord of Judgement, King (with a divine kingdom) and Messiah!
And remember we know that we cannot simply believe and/or express theological truths with true sincerity and repentance without God touching our hearts:
"He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 16:15-17And:
"No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit" - 1 Corinthians 12:3cAnd:
"God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth" - 2 Timothy 2:25Thank you for your question. I pray that God draw you to true redemption in his Holy Son through the power of his Holy Spirit. Amen.
Thanks Mark Bennett for your kind reply.I agree with you that a careful reading of the New Testament leads to the conclusion that salvation is through the famous Sinner's Prayer.So much to ask and comment upon.I have read Vincent Bugliosi's book "Divinity and Doubt,God and Atheism on Trial"(2011).He's a skeptic,very intelligent.I see that you were a Christian,then an atheist,then agnostic,then Christian again.You have probably heard it all.Bugliosi is an honest,logical skeptic,in his book he agrees that an impartial reading of the NT says salvation is only by faith in Jesus.He finds it absurd,but he agrees.He also agrees that evolution has serious problems,so do I.I don't mind at all if evolution is true,but I agree,there are technical problems.Bugliosi also says that the arguments of world-famous atheist Richard Dawkings against the existence of a God are bad,intellectually-speaking.Bugliosi is a renowned lawyer,so he has high standards.You yourself,as I have seen,have written an article showing the lack of good reasoning in Dawking's arguments.
ReplyDeleteI see you are familiar with James White,the Calvinist apologist.In one of his videos he argues,and he agrees with it,that the evidence is that Jesus never said,"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."I have even read that in the original Greek it is an order given by Jesus to God.He's telling God what to do,like a policeman.But if White is correct,it's an interpolation.
In the time Jesus lived the great majority of people were illiterate,and most probably the thief was also.The great majority of Catholics,even though literate,have only the most basic knowledge of Catholicism,or even Christianity.They never read the Bible,so are Bible-illiterate,they are the equivalent of the thief on the cross,except that in his case he only knew basic Judaism.
ReplyDeleteNow you wrote:
"He even heard Jesus instruct the Father to forgive his enemies, showing that Jesus had some type of divine authority. He heard the people confess that Jesus had saved others, and shown awareness that he was conceivably some kind of Christ (Messiah)."
And also:
" And to finish it off he openly requests Jesus to remember him (showing us Jesus is the omnipotent Lord of the heaven and judgement) in his kingdom (note Jesus kingdom, not merely "God's"). In conclusion this thief understood Jesus to be the Lord of Judgement, King (with a divine kingdom) and Messiah!"
In essence,the thief,since he had nothing to lose,decided on a Pascal's Wager action.But since he knew basic Judaism,it's inconceivable he would,if he wanted to get reconciled with Yahweh,and later be resurrected, commit idolatry and blasphemy by accepting a dying man as God incarnate.At the most,I will,for argument's sake,concede he would have thought Jesus had a touch of divinity,but not the Incarnation.
And having some divine authority,Jesus,for the thief about to die, would have influence with Yahweh, in getting Yahweh to help him.For the thief,the Father and Yahweh were one and the same.So the thief heard Jesus call out to the Father(Yahweh) and at most would have thought Jesus had been given authority by the Father,to rule the kingdom,or some of it.But to actually think he would consider Jesus to be at the same level as Yahweh,while Jesus was about to die,is more than the text says.Not that you say it says that.
I would put the JWs at the same position as the thief on the cross.They accept Jesus as Saviour,Messiah,divine,the Son of God,the ruler of heaven,having been made ruler of heaven by God.They believe Jesus died as a ransom for humanity,and in the resurrection,but it's spiritual.Jesus will be the ruler of the kingdom on earth that is to come.And,as I said before,they sincerely ask God for forgiveness of their sins every day and in Jesus' name.And no doubt,when there are on their deathbed.And so do religious Catholics and others,like Eastern Orthodox Christians,and the Copts,Nestorians,etc.
ReplyDeleteI know the history of Christianity and I agree with you,and with Bugliosi,that the New Testament,says salvation is by faith in Jesus and not good works,but at the same time,that doctrine disappeared by the 2nd century C.E.It's a historical fact,it's not the doctrine of the Catholic Church,nor of the Eastern Orthodox one,with the Patriarch of Constantinople as it's head,nor of the Coptic,Ethiopian and Nestorian,Middle-East churches.Their doctrine is salvation by faith and good works,just like the JWs.It didn't reappear until the 16th century.That tells me God is more flexible and easy-going than we thought.He certainly would have accepted their petition for forgiveness of sins,seeing it was sincere.If one takes the opposite view,that it's only through the Sinner's Prayer,then we are in a no-win situation.
The true doctrine of salvation disappeared for more than 1,000 years,everybody in that time went to hell,Satan was laughing and having a great time and,as I see it,Jesus' prophecy that the "gates of hell will not prevail against it"(the church) turned out to be false.
I read a comment by somebody about the JWs,she not being one herself,but that,I think,show us clearly what Jesus thinks of Christians who are sincere yet have not understood it all.Like in the case of the multitudes of Catholics,Copts,Eastern Orthodox,etc,people who century after century,made a sincere confession of sins and asked God for forgiveness on their deathbed.In fact,until only 100 years ago,the great majority of people in those churches did make deathbed confessions.Today,I doubt it.
ReplyDeleteShe pointed out what Jesus said in Mark 9:38-40:
"John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone putting out demons in YOUR NAME. We told him to stop because HE WAS NOT FOLLOWING US.”
Jesus said, “Do not stop him. No one who does a powerful work in MY NAME can say anything bad about Me soon after. The person who is NOT AGAINST US IS FOR US."
JWs ask for forgiveness directly to the Father,Jehovah,and in Jesus' name,everyday.I always hear them say it.
Again Mark,I wish to thank you for your feedback,it made me think.Some of the stuff you pointed out was unknown to me.I will certainly keep reading you.Try to get more knowledge.Remember I told you I had sent that fake Christian Sam Shamoun a second email?I though he would not even read it,or if so he would have said,"I am sorry,I lost my temper,I was being a jerk,it was unChrist-like."
ReplyDeleteInstead,Sam Shamoun showed he has the fruits of the Holy Spirit by writing,on Dec 28th:
"Why in the world would you email me again with more of your nonsense, therebvy proving that you are an arorgant attention getting twit who needs to take a deepr look at himself to see if he is saved, or if he is actually a charlatan who seeks the praise of men rather than the praise of God? And thank you for confirming that you are a narcissist who really has a high of vuiew of his own self-worth.
Now prove me wrong and stop emaiing. But you and I know both know that your narcissim will eat you alive if you don't try to get in the last word."
I couldn't help laughing.What he wrote is a description of he himself.The man is mental.Or if he can tell right from wrong then he is deceiving himself that he is a holy man of who Jesus would be proud of.The famous question,"What would Jesus do?"Well,he certainly wouldn't act like Shamoun.
To show that James White really doubts Luke 23:34("Father,forgive them,etc" ),based on the evidence,here is a video where he talks about it.It begins at minute one until minte 2:20:
http://youtu.be/eWiY32bb2K8