So far I believe that there is nothing inherently illogical about God becoming a creation known as the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation. When Christians say this is a mystery, they don't mean it goes against reason, all they mean is we cannot explain all the elements of God's incarnation process, for e.g. we cannot explain all the elements of how God created the universe, or how a non-physical being can produce physicality, since the two are opposites, we don't have all the detail.
Without further or do here is our discussion and here is a classic case in point of why Muslims ought to never objection to the doctrine of the Incarnation (on the grounds that Islam has virtually very similar concepts).
Key:
Dk-man7 = Derek Adams (me)
Key:
Dk-man7 = Derek Adams (me)
muslim4life: come in the ac room
muslim4life: companion is here
muslim4life: or are u scared
muslim4life: ?
Dk-man7: i told you earlier
Dk-man7: i've known companion for years
Dk-man7: am not interested
muslim4life: lets see if ur claims stand now
muslim4life: im on the mic
muslim4life: i want to see if ur claims still hold infront of the real muslim debators scholors
Dk-man7: firstly stop spamming me with invites
muslim4life: ok
Dk-man7: secondly you already know the hadith I quoted, so you can quote them to your scholars
muslim4life: but companion is here 2 destroy ur arguments
muslim4life: yes companion is here
muslim4life: now
Dk-man7: thirdly, I'm not interested in talking with companion or any other admin in that room, because they make up their own version of Islam, the are as useless as Quran only Muslims.
Dk-man7: Thanks
muslim4life: its obvious ur scared
muslim4life: i beg u 2 come in the room
muslim4life: i havent heard companion for ages
Dk-man7: Scared? I've already refuted companion over a dozen times, he is a waste of time.
Dk-man7: Am not interested at all
muslim4life: hahaha hes ready 4 u
Alert: muslim4life has started their webcam
Alert: muslim4life has stopped their webcam
Dk-man7: so did you quote the hadith ?
Dk-man7: what was the answer
muslim4life: he answered it
muslim4life: but ur scared
muslim4life: now
Dk-man7: type it out
muslim4life: hes ready 4 u
muslim4life: i cant because when he sent it me i crossed it out the pm
Dk-man7: type out his answer, did he say the hadith is fabricated?
Dk-man7: did he say "House" doesn't mean "House"?
Dk-man7: go ahead
muslim4life: no he didnt
muslim4life: if u come in the room u wil be humilated
muslim4life: by him
muslim4life: hes the tru scholor
muslim4life: lol
Dk-man7: so u dont know his answer, even though he gave u an answer?
muslim4life: he is a true islamic scholor
muslim4life: i dont no the exact words
Dk-man7: you dont need the exact words
muslim4life: it was like
muslim4life: no the house bit i didnt ask him tht it was allah going into creation
muslim4life: he refuted it
muslim4life: but if u come in room u will no the anwer
muslim4life: answer
muslim4life: but ur fearing
muslim4life: he will crush u
Dk-man7: okay so what is his rebuttal, to the fact that Allah descends to the lowest of heavens
Dk-man7: go ahead, type it out
muslim4life: he said allah desends it doesnt mean hes part of his creation ... it was long but he destroyed u , ur just scared
muslim4life: now the throne thing il ask him tht after
Dk-man7: So Allah is descending to the lowiest heaven, but he is not apart of the creation? So how is he descending inside his creation if he's not apart of it ?
muslim4life: u see ur so scared 2 speak 2 him because u no u will be humiliated
muslim4life: if u think ur claims can stand debate me then in the ac room
muslim4life: companion wil just listen
Dk-man7: me and you have already debated this
Dk-man7: how is he descending inside his creation if he's not apart of it ?
muslim4life: we will do it again then when ur refuting me then companion will hammer u
Dk-man7: I told you already, I'm not interested in companion or any other admin in that room.
muslim4life: so u can discuss with them
Dk-man7: In fact that room is one of the worst rooms on paltalk in terms of free speech
Dk-man7: I have no interest at all
Dk-man7: So you said Allah descending to the lowest of heavens, that doesn't make him part of the creation. So then Allah is NOT descending OR he is inside the creation?
Dk-man7: Islam is the solution is the same bunch of idiots from AC
muslim4life: come in the other room companion is not a admin
muslim4life: lol
muslim4life: companion is not a admin
Dk-man7: okay you said Allah exists without a place.
Dk-man7: Now if Allah exists without a place, how is he descending from one place to another?
Dk-man7: Ask that on mic to your scholars
muslim4life: noo he can exist without a place
muslim4life: ok
muslim4life: i wil ask tht q
muslim4life: only if u come in the room
Dk-man7: And remember the answer, so you can type it out to me
Dk-man7: summarize the answer in this pm
muslim4life: no
muslim4life: u have 2 come in the room
muslim4life: type the q
Dk-man7: already have
Dk-man7: if Allah exists without a place, how is he descending from one place to another?
muslim4life: he desends the way that suits his majesty
muslim4life: thts my answer
muslim4life: he gave a answer
muslim4life: he gave a rubish answer
Dk-man7: bingo
Dk-man7: You are a bright kid, you will do well mate
Dk-man7: The question is not "How he descends" whether it's majestic or not is irrelevant. The question is "how can he descend INSIDE CREATION, if Allah exists without a place?"
Dk-man7: unless he admits the lowest and highest heavens are eternal
Dk-man7: which contradicts the Quran and Sunnah
muslim4life: i do get the q
muslim4life: hang on
Dk-man7: lowest heaven = a place inside creation, if Allah can descend inside a place inside creation, from place A to place B, then how does Allah exist without a place?
Dk-man7: he clearly exists WITH a place
Dk-man7: meaning he is PART of the creation
muslim4life: answer is
muslim4life: he doesnt exist without a place
muslim4life: he exists in a place
muslim4life: thats a devient belief
muslim4life: hes above the throne
muslim4life: we wont say its a not a place
Dk-man7: he exists WITH A PLACE, and this place is highest/lowest heaven, which is a created realm.
muslim4life: so thts the answer
muslim4life: he is above the 7th heaven
Dk-man7: so again your God is not only inside the creation, he can move around inside the creation
Dk-man7: no sir
Dk-man7: let me quote for you
muslim4life: u see ur scared 2 come in the room
Dk-man7: The Prophet (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”
[Sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
Dk-man7: every night to the lowest heaven
Dk-man7: your God is not only inside the creation, he can move around inside the creation
muslim4life: yes so wht the point
Dk-man7: the point is your God can enter creation without ceasing to be God
muslim4life: it doesnt mean hes part of his creation
Dk-man7: sure it does, when he goes from A to B, is that not PART of his movement? which is in fact part of the creation?
muslim4life: what ur trying 2 do is throw all these points 2 prove god can become a man
Dk-man7: he sure can
muslim4life: ok he can but he does godly things
muslim4life: but it doesnt suit his majesty
Dk-man7: so how is it Godly for God to enter his creation?
Dk-man7: God is the creator yes?
muslim4life: yes
Dk-man7: Okay so the Creator only does Godly things.
muslim4life: yes
Dk-man7: So how is Allah able to enter into creation
Dk-man7: if that is ungodly
Dk-man7: ?
muslim4life: he can go in the creation like move around
muslim4life: but he doesnt become a man
Dk-man7: so when he goes inside the creation, he takes upon which form?
muslim4life: he can go in his creation with the same form
muslim4life: he can desend
muslim4life: but not like a man
Dk-man7: you just exposed yourself
Dk-man7: he can condescend
muslim4life: ok how
Dk-man7: condescend
Dk-man7: bingo
Dk-man7: so if God can condescend inorder to enter the creation, why can he not condescend as a man inside creation ?
muslim4life: BECAUSE IT DOESNT SUIT HIS MAJESTY BECAUSE IF HE BECOMES A MAN THEN HES NOT GOD ANYMORE AND GOD IS ALWAYS GOD BINGO
muslim4life: ARGUMENT DESTROYED
muslim4life: watch the debate
Dk-man7: That's a false analogy, entering creation, does that mean God DOES NOT EXIST outside the creation?
muslim4life: on u tube
muslim4life: sami zaatari can god become a man
Dk-man7: Are you saying when God enters creation therefore he is NOT outside the creation?
Dk-man7: you are presenting a false analogy even in your own bogus faith
Dk-man7: Allah entering the lowiest heaven, does not mean he does NOT exist above the seventh heaven
muslim4life: he is not like his creation but hes in the earth if he desends on earth
Dk-man7: okay so if he descends on earth, are you saying he is NOT above the throne?
Dk-man7: that would mean you just exposed Islam aswell
muslim4life: no he can be on the throne and then desend
Dk-man7: can he be above the throne and be in the lowiest heaven simetaneously?
muslim4life: yes
Dk-man7: thanks
Dk-man7: buried
muslim4life: god can do everything hes all poweful
muslim4life: powerful
muslim4life: lo
Dk-man7: So God being in the lowiest heaven, does not mean he is NOT above the seventh heaven
Dk-man7: you just proved my point
muslim4life: yes
muslim4life: but ur scared 2 debate companion
Dk-man7: right now that you admit God can enter creation while still existing outside creation, what is your objection?
muslim4life: hmm
muslim4life: u see u wont debate companion
Dk-man7: here's what i'll do just for you
Dk-man7: I will watch Zaatari's debate again, and make a video review of the key points he makes and respond to them and put my response on youtube.
Dk-man7: Now mrdebatethehate has youtube, so you can paste my link to him
Dk-man7: And he can refute me
Dk-man7: And it seems you are smart enough to know if his answers are b.s.
muslim4life: companion
Dk-man7: yes his old name is mrdebatethehate
Dk-man7: i've known him for years
muslim4life: ok send all ur points 2 me
muslim4life: il get them answered
Dk-man7: they are already in this pm
muslim4life: i crossed it
muslim4life: u give them me now
muslim4life: il get them answered by a top muslim apologist
muslim4life: so can god everything?
Dk-man7: The top Muslim Apologist is Bassam Zawadi who like you is a Salafi. His answers usually go like this "IN away that befits Allah's majesty"
Dk-man7: "Allah knows best"
muslim4life: yes thts who i am messaging
muslim4life: i think my answers now
muslim4life: will be allah knows best
muslim4life: sami zaatari destroys argument can god become man
muslim4life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hio0uwymQrA
Dk-man7: I'll expose all his errors don't worry
muslim4life: companion has replied
muslim4life: 2 me
muslim4life: now
muslim4life: he said wht does he mean entering creation
Dk-man7: in fact I'll watch his introduction now
muslim4life: wht do u mean
muslim4life: go on
muslim4life just sent you a nudge!
Dk-man7: entering creation is self explanatory
Dk-man7: creation is created by definition it did not always exist
muslim4life: wht do u mean
muslim4life: god is god creation is creation
Dk-man7: which means to "enter" in creation, would mean at one point, you did not exist inside creation
Dk-man7: now pressumably, before Allah created the heavens, he was not descending to the lowest heavens.
Dk-man7: Which means he has to enter creation first
Dk-man7: in order to descend to the lowiest heaven
Dk-man7: That is self explanatory
muslim4life: the creator can not become a creation
muslim4life: or hes not a creator
muslim4life: argument destroyed
muslim4life: companion is here
muslim4life: ready for u
muslim4life: but ur scared
Dk-man7: The creator entering creation does not mean he didn't create the creation.
Dk-man7: That's a non-sequito
Dk-man7: Doesn't follow
Dk-man7: First Zaatari claim "If God became a man he would no longer be God, that's an oxy moron, that's a contradiction". This pressuposes, that God cannot create a new nature to dwell in as a man, while keeping his original nature, but what argument does he present for this? Okay his follow-up analogy is "If a man became a duck, he would no longer be a man", but this is a false analogy, since we don't claim God merely became a man, but that he took on the body of a man in a new additional nature. This is not transformers, truck or robot (one at a time), since God is not a finite(created being) that transforms from one state into another, that is completely false analogy.
Dk-man7: "Can anyone imagine an all powerful God being such a helpless limited baby", that's just an argument from emotion. I could use the same: "Could anyone imagine the all powerful Allah SITTING upon the throne, how does an all powerful creator SIT upon a created entity? with an ass?"
Dk-man7: So yeah that's just appeal to emotion.
muslim4life: " but DK man knows better, thats why he wont come to our room " companion of quran quote
Dk-man7: since the last time I was there, he dotted me
Dk-man7: am not interested
muslim4life: ok
muslim4life: all ur points he refuted
muslim4life: but tht topic i know nothing about and its important for me 2 learn it
muslim4life: aall these points ur trying 2 prove is god can become a man
Dk-man7: okay if he refuted everything, then you can answer
Dk-man7: Dk-man7: right now that you admit God can enter creation while still existing outside creation, what is your objection?
muslim4life: no i was wrong i dont no if god can enter creation while existing outside we cant q tht
muslim4life: we only use wht the quran says as muslims
muslim4life: im a salafi muslim
muslim4life: allah knows best
muslim4life: lol
muslim4life: thts the BEST
muslim4life: ANSWER
muslim4life: HAHA
Dk-man7: Furthermore, when Allah reveals his Shin, if it's not really HIS SHIN, (meaning it's not his true and real Godly nature in it's fullest sense), then why are Muslims committing idoltary by bowing before it?
Dk-man7: why would they prostrate before Allah's shin?
Dk-man7: if it's not really Allah's shin or if it doesn't really belong to Allah?
Dk-man7: lol Muslim4life lol
Dk-man7: good one
muslim4life: im going now nice talking 2 u
muslim4life: bye
Dk-man7: byebye
muslim4life is now offline.
Messages will be delivered when they sign on to Paltalk.
Just in case you missed why I asked the final question. The question was asked since if according to Muslims, If God can enter the creation without becoming creation, then we must ask what Muslims are in fact prostrating to when they prostrate to Allah's shin?
1) Allah can be seen by his servants in the after life, specifically the day of Resurrection and onward
2) Allah can take various shapes and forms and even claim deity in these appearances
3) Allah actually reveals his own Shin to his creatures who prostrate before him
Now presuming that Allah's Shin, is just not merely another one of Allah's forms, then Muslims are prostrating to the actual Shin of Allah meaning Allah has become part of the creation, since they are actually prostrating before his very Shin! We have to admit they cannot be prostrating before Allah's shin from outside the creation, since Allah's servants are not eternal and cannot exist outside time and space.
But lets say that Allah's shin is only one of Allah's visions, forms and appearances. Firstly are these forms, eternal or finite? This hadith indicates Allah changes his form from one form to another: "other than the one which they saw FIRST", this means Allah's forms are not permanent but temporary, and therefore created. But if Allah presenting a created form to his servants (meaning Allah is manipulating created substances) and his servants bow before this created form, is this not idolatry? When Allah reveals his Shin, if it's not really HIS SHIN, (it's not his true and real Godly nature in it's fullest sense), then why are Muslims committing idolatry by bowing before it?
Just in case you missed why I asked the final question. The question was asked since if according to Muslims, If God can enter the creation without becoming creation, then we must ask what Muslims are in fact prostrating to when they prostrate to Allah's shin?
Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.' So the companions of the cross will go with their cross, and the idolators (will go) with their idols, and the companions of every god (false deities) (will go) with their god, till there remain those who used to worship Allah, both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, and some of the people of the Scripture. Then Hell will be presented to them as if it were a mirage. Then it will be said to the Jews, "What did you use to worship?' They will reply, 'We used to worship Ezra, the son of Allah.' It will be said to them, 'You are liars, for Allah has neither a wife nor a son. What do you want (now)?' They will reply, 'We want You to provide us with water.' Then it will be said to them 'Drink,' and they will fall down in Hell (instead). Then it will be said to the Christians, 'What did you use to worship?'
Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’ And none will speak: to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, ‘Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?’ They will say. ‘The Shin,’ and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him and there will remain those who used to prostrate before Him just for showing off and for gaining good reputation. These people will try to prostrate but their backs will be rigid like one piece of a wood (and they will not be able to prostrate). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532)...We learn various facts from this hadith.
1) Allah can be seen by his servants in the after life, specifically the day of Resurrection and onward
2) Allah can take various shapes and forms and even claim deity in these appearances
3) Allah actually reveals his own Shin to his creatures who prostrate before him
Now presuming that Allah's Shin, is just not merely another one of Allah's forms, then Muslims are prostrating to the actual Shin of Allah meaning Allah has become part of the creation, since they are actually prostrating before his very Shin! We have to admit they cannot be prostrating before Allah's shin from outside the creation, since Allah's servants are not eternal and cannot exist outside time and space.
But lets say that Allah's shin is only one of Allah's visions, forms and appearances. Firstly are these forms, eternal or finite? This hadith indicates Allah changes his form from one form to another: "other than the one which they saw FIRST", this means Allah's forms are not permanent but temporary, and therefore created. But if Allah presenting a created form to his servants (meaning Allah is manipulating created substances) and his servants bow before this created form, is this not idolatry? When Allah reveals his Shin, if it's not really HIS SHIN, (it's not his true and real Godly nature in it's fullest sense), then why are Muslims committing idolatry by bowing before it?
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