Tawheed Debate
Dk-man7: MUSLIM4LIFE You compared Allah's oneness to his hearing, which means his hearing is unlike ours, which means his oneness is unlike ours. If we don't know what his oneness is, then how do you know he is not three in one? You just admit his oneness and his hearing are incomprehensible to us and exist in a different plain not known to us. You shot yourself in the foot.
muslim4life: because he hasnt described himself 1 in 3 in the quran we stop where God stops
muslim4life: same in the Bible
Dk-man7: That wasn't the question
Dk-man7: How do you know he is NOT 3 in 1
Dk-man7: the question is not that he is 3 in 1
Dk-man7: how do you know he is NOT
Dk-man7: you don't know what his oneness is
muslim4life: because he hasnt mentioned that if we were to say he is 3 in 1 tht would be a biddah in the religion innovation
Dk-man7: again not the question
muslim4life: like christians added something to the religion
Dk-man7: I didn't say you are saying he *is*
Dk-man7: I said how do you know he is NOT
muslim4life: if he was 3 in 1 he would of mentioned it
muslim4life: so EXPOSED!!!!!!!!!!!
muslim4life: he says he is 1 and only 1
muslim4life: ONLY 1
Dk-man7: Wait you just said you don't know what his oneness is. Now you're saying his oneness excludes threeness and oneness?
Dk-man7: You are contradicting yourself every sentence.
muslim4life: if u say he is 3 in 1 tht means 3 Gods since quran affirms 1 and only 1 therefore u cnt have 3 in 1
muslim4life: EXPOSED!!!!!
muslim4life: ahahah
Dk-man7: But you don't know what his oneness is, so merely repeating that Qur'an says he is one, is not an affirmation of any kind of exclusion.
Dk-man7: You are contradicting yourself every sentence.
muslim4life: we stop where God stops
Dk-man7: That's fine that's not the question
muslim4life: ok i get u
Dk-man7: How do you know he is NOT one in a plural sense
muslim4life: wht ur trying to say
Dk-man7: I am not saying you have tos ay it
Dk-man7: I am asking how you konw that.
Dk-man7: The fact is you don't know, because you don't know what his oneness is.
muslim4life: siNCE Muhammad used his finger to indicate one and only 1 which means literally 1
muslim4life: in some hadith
Dk-man7: LOL!!!
Dk-man7: So you do know what oneness is?
Dk-man7: Yes or no ?
muslim4life: its like asking do u knw wht Gods hearing is but his hearing is unique to him he hears all but whne it comes to 1 since u have 1 apple 1 anything thats how he is that 1 but thts not shirk in anyway u are not comparing anyway u are just saying 1
muslim4life: There is no god except Me; you shall worship Me alone." 21:25 if ther was another person tht would mean we will have to worship another person so it wont be alone
Dk-man7: Is oneness numerical as you just quoteud in the hadith. Or do you not know what oneness is as per your answer on mic?
Dk-man7: Your just saying "we know he hears everything", what does "hear everything mean when said of allah?
Dk-man7: do you know what his hearing is ?
muslim4life: his hearing is unique to him we just know that hears everything
muslim4life: we dont know HOW he hears
muslim4life: but he hears everything
muslim4life: in a way tht he knows best since he hasnt told us about how he hears
muslim4life: lol theology is not my field
muslim4life: dont ask me again ahahha
muslim4life: im still studying theology in islam
Dk-man7: So you know that he is one, but you don't know HOW he is one.
Dk-man7: Thanks that's the end of your objections to the Trinity
muslim4life: he is 1 like 1 in singular
muslim4life: since he said ONLY 1
Dk-man7: Okay so Allah is numerically singular yes?
muslim4life: he is 1 like literally 1 and only 1
Dk-man7: okay he is literally the no 1
Dk-man7: ok
Dk-man7: so your God is an abstract number
muslim4life: lol u have 1 apple 1 phone 1 person he is 1 like tht
Dk-man7: It would of been better to say he is singular, but now your saying he is literally the no 1
muslim4life: lol yes singular
Dk-man7: so Allah is like creation in his oneness?
muslim4life: ahahaha il find out then get bak to u
Dk-man7: "he is 1 LIKE that" Muslim4life
muslim4life: he is not like creation
Dk-man7: but you just compared him to creation and said he is one like that
Dk-man7: If he is one like an apple or a telephone, then you realize Allah is composed of parts right?
Dk-man7: Now my question would be how is something that is uncreated composed of parts ?
muslim4life: no i didnt compare him to humans i said 1 in terms of singular if i say 1 phone thts 1 in tht sense singular 1 car singular
Dk-man7: exactly you compared him to creation
Dk-man7: You just did it again.
Dk-man7: Muslim4life, so Allah is one like a car or a phone. How are you explaining "how" his oneness is, if (as you said) we can't explain how his oneness exists?
muslim4life: ur making it complicated God is singular thts it
muslim4life: not in persons like u say
muslim4life: when i meant how meaning his attributes of hearing seeing
Dk-man7: yes you don't know how his oneness or hearing or seeing exist.
Dk-man7: so how do you know how his oneness exists when according to your own words you don't?
Dk-man7: and if you don't how are you defining his oneness to the exclusion of anything?
muslim4life: we dont know how in a sense of his hearing seeing but we know he hears sees everything
Dk-man7: exactly so you know that he is one, but you don't know how. so how are you comparing him to the oneness of a car?
Dk-man7: when you don't know how?
Dk-man7: and isn't it haram to compare Allah to creation?
muslim4life: meaning singular
muslim4life: thts not comparing God thts just givin example
muslim4life: of wht we mean
Dk-man7: okay so does Allah have windows, doors and a boot?
muslim4life: no
Dk-man7: meaning, does Allah have parts like a creation ?
muslim4life: no
Dk-man7: so then Allah is not singular in the same sense as the car.
Dk-man7: as the car is composed of different parts.
Dk-man7: so why do you keep attempting to explain how?
muslim4life: we are not talking about the actual car we are just sayin 1 CAR
muslim4life: EXPOSED
Dk-man7: yes but the 'oneness' of the car is a plurality of distinct parts.
Dk-man7: so if you say Allah's oneness is like that, you have vindicated my world view.
muslim4life: take away car tht was e.g like 1 pen 1 apple 1 finger
Dk-man7: All of those examples are composed of parts aswell.
Dk-man7: Have you ever dissembled a pen? I'm sure you have.
Dk-man7: Have you ever eaten an apple i'm sure you have.
muslim4life: we are not talking about parts we are talking about number 1
Dk-man7: Have you ever x-rayed one finger , I'm sure you have.
muslim4life: lol
muslim4life: forget the parts its the number 1 meaning singular
muslim4life: cnt get more clear thn tht
muslim4life: shaytan is whispering in u now
Dk-man7: no it's a very simple question really.
Dk-man7: You say Allah is singular, then you compare him to a pen, an apple and a car. I point out that those objects exist as multiple parts coming together as one.
Dk-man7: So does Allah exist with the same oneness as them?
Dk-man7: If he does then he is made up of a plurality of parts.
Dk-man7: If he is made up of a plurality of oneness, then you vindicate my world view.
muslim4life: he is 1 he doesnt have parts he has power over everything
muslim4life: he doesnt need to have parts
muslim4life: he can be 1 without parts
muslim4life: and he is 1 without parts
muslim4life: remember theology is not my field
Dk-man7: okay so earlier you said you don't know HOW his oneness exists, now you are saying he does not have parts.
muslim4life: im still studying now
muslim4life: dnt ask me il get bak to u
Dk-man7: so you *do* know how his oneness exists
muslim4life: iv just began yesterday reading book on tawheed once iv red il challenge u
Dk-man7: Brother I am the book on Tawheed.
muslim4life: Sahahahah
muslim4life: come to tawheed reject trinitt
muslim4life: trinity
Dk-man7: I reject Tawheed because I know more about it than you
Trinity Debate
muslim4life: tawheed is more logical thn trinity
muslim4life: fact
Dk-man7: really?
Dk-man7: you want to debate that?
muslim4life: ahaha
muslim4life: not yet
Dk-man7: Let me get this straight. You haven't studied theology. You haven't read a book on tawheed. But yet you are are asserting one position is more logical than another position?
Dk-man7: How is that a logical statement to make?
muslim4life: Such terminology appears only in the writings of Church fathers much later. The position of the Roman Catholic Church is that the term ‘trinity’ was first mentioned late into the second century:
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together…The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180…Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian.
Dk-man7: Dk-man7: Let me get this straight. You haven't studied theology. You haven't read a book on tawheed. But yet you are are asserting one position is more logical than another position?
Dk-man7: How is that a logical statement to make?
muslim4life: i havent studied it in detail but from surface n iv studied trinity from surface from the surface trinity is illogical
Dk-man7: I want to know what reasons you have for believing tawheed is more logical than the trinity. then I want to know if I show those reasons are false, will you retract the statement?
muslim4life: jesus says my god he has a God u have 2 Gods ahahah
muslim4life: so u have son praying to the father yet ther 1 ahhaah
muslim4life: how can i accept tht
Dk-man7: how are they one in Trinitarian theology @ Muslim4life
Dk-man7: and how would their oneness exclude communication?
Dk-man7: you would have to show how they are one, and how if they are one, the type of oneness would exclude them from relating.
muslim4life: 1 being in 3 persons yet each 3 are seperate entities n God at the same time and communicate with each other pray to each other
muslim4life: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. [John 17:3]
This statement in the Bible is devastating to the doctrine of the Trinity, as it clearly identifies God as the only true God to the exclusion of Jesus.
Dk-man7: okay forget copying and pasting.
Dk-man7: okay so they are one in being and distinct in person.
Dk-man7: so how would it be illogical for one person to communicate with another person?
muslim4life: but they pray to each other
muslim4life: talk to each other
muslim4life: but if its 1 God then why would they speak
Dk-man7: correct, so explain how the type of oneness they possses, would exclude relations?
Dk-man7: you just answered that they are not the same person.
Dk-man7: do persons communicate yes or no ?
muslim4life: ur not making sense if the son is God and the father is God 1 in heaven 1 on earth the son on earth looks up prays to God says my God says hes going to God yet they are 1
muslim4life: wow
Dk-man7: notice you are on side tangents.
Dk-man7: do persons communicate, yes or no ?
muslim4life: yes becaus we are all humans
muslim4life: u are commiting shirk again ahahah
Dk-man7: okay so how does the oneness possesed by the Trinity exclude communication?
Dk-man7: when they are three distinct persons
Dk-man7: please explain that to me.
Dk-man7: otherwise stop making it up as you go along.
muslim4life: ok so 1 being he decides to take 3 forms?
Dk-man7: we are not discussing whether God appears in form , that is a different subject.
muslim4life: So when we Christians say that God is one, we are not emphasizing his oneness of personhood, rather we are emphasizing his oneness of being. IS THT true
Dk-man7: we are discussing why is it that 3 persons cannot communicatE?
Dk-man7: what is your rational?
muslim4life: ok
muslim4life: they can offcourse
muslim4life: because they are different
Dk-man7: okay, so if God was one person, would it make sense for him to talk to himself?
muslim4life: however if your speaking about God why would God speak to himself?
muslim4life: or
muslim4life: why do u have the father speaking to the son if they are both God
Dk-man7: that's just it, he's not speaking *to himself*, he's speaking to another "person" within God.
muslim4life: why does jesus say hes been sent by God if he is God himself
Dk-man7: why wouldn't you? a person by very definition is a relationary figure
Dk-man7: because we just established God is three persons, not three forms as the heretics teach.
muslim4life: ok jesus GOD father GOD both speak to each other jesus goes to the father yet they are both 1
Dk-man7: three forms would mean Jesus sent himself
Dk-man7: three persons would meane Jesus was actually sent by a distinct person
muslim4life: if u have 2 different persons but 2 identical twins and u punish 1 out of the 2 can u punish the other 1?
Dk-man7: What is clear is that you have no idea what the Trinity is. So how you say Tawheed is more rational is beyond words.
Dk-man7: You don't even know the distinction between person and form, so how are you going to say the Trinity is less logical and Tawheed more logical?
muslim4life: Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. it makes a distinction says father it ONLY true God so jesus is not a true God accordin to john 17v 3
Dk-man7: muslim4life: why does jesus say hes been sent by God if he is God himself
Dk-man7: Is Jesus the Father according to Trinitarian theology?
muslim4life: no but he has been sent by God
muslim4life: so u have 2 Gods
muslim4life: 1 jesus the son in human form then u have the father in the heaven in another form 2
Dk-man7: oh boy
Dk-man7: you think like a salafi
muslim4life: lol
muslim4life: How is it possible for the Father to be the ONLY true God, while at the same time the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well? If the Son and Holy Spirit are God as well, then it is false to say that the Father is the ONLY true God. thats wht u need to answer!!!!!!
Dk-man7: IF that is your conception of the Trinity and you think that is 'not logical' I don't care.
muslim4life: so your contradicting your Bible
Dk-man7: Because you are not accurately representing us
muslim4life: cool lets end it there lets be friends
muslim4life: ahHAA
Dk-man7: Honestly when I say I reject Tawheed, I actually mean Tawheed as defined by every orthodox position in Islam.
Dk-man7: When you say you reject the Trinity, you haven't even studied it.
Dk-man7: First you confused it with modalism, then tri-theism.
muslim4life: well we knw wht the main belief is of trinity 3 in 1
Dk-man7: The problem is you don't know who God is. You think God is a being like me and you are a being.
Dk-man7: Hence you think God is a body with a person
Dk-man7: Hence God can only be one person
Dk-man7: This is not how Christians conceive of God
muslim4life: nope misrepreseting
muslim4life: my beliefs
Dk-man7: No i'm not.
Dk-man7: Look
muslim4life: u have 2 be consistent
Dk-man7: muslim4life: 1 jesus the son in human form then u have the father in the heaven in another form 2
muslim4life: thats 2
Dk-man7: You think the Father has a form and exists in heavne.
Dk-man7: heaven
muslim4life: how many pictures do u have in mind when u think of father and son answer
muslim4life: u never have 1
Dk-man7: that's your concept of God
muslim4life: 2
Dk-man7: I don't have pictures of God
Dk-man7: Again changing the subject.
muslim4life: well lets just say u have father in heaven a God in heaven
Dk-man7: You believe God is a being like me and you are a being.
Dk-man7: You believe the Father is in heaven with a form.
muslim4life: without form but u hav a God in heaven so irelevent
Dk-man7: Therefore he is one person like me and you.
Dk-man7: You don't understand who God is
muslim4life: nope
muslim4life: hes not physical
Dk-man7: Theologians do not deal with amateur conceptions of God like this
muslim4life: like we are
Dk-man7: IRRELEVANT.
Dk-man7: You are saying he is FORM and IN heaven
muslim4life: lol
muslim4life: need 2 go
Dk-man7: That is a being like us in atleast several senses.
muslim4life: bye
Dk-man7: That means your God is a man.
Dk-man7: bye
See Part II here
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