The open theist claims that the knowledge of God can be limited. They claim that the future doesn't actually exist or either that God looks into the future and chooses what he will not know. God is the author of time, meaning he created time and that he is sovereign over time. When the open theist claims that God doesn't know the future he is basically asserting that God is limited to time.
This is a change in the nature of God because he is eternal by nature and isn't restricted to time. Also this is a logical contradiction when an open theist takes the position that God looks into the future and chooses what he wants to know in the future.
If the open theist says that time is a property of God's existence then in order to arrive at the present, which logically would mean infinite amount of time must have passed in order for us to arrive in the present. But we also know it is impossible for an infinite amount of time to be traversed.
And for the open theist who claims that the future doesn't exist they must account for God accurately predicting future events and giving details of those events. Another thing to keep in mind if God is restricted to time therefore he isn't omnipresent, because omnipresence entails he exist in all places in the universe and including outside the universe.
His attribute of being omnipresent couldn't be restricted to time because if it was it would negate him for being omnipresent. There are open theist who say he is omnipresent in the present sense which still would mean he is constrained to time.
Regarding freewill the open theist says is something God chooses to not know in the future.But this causes an issue. If God knows that in the future someone will make a choice, how can he then decide to not know it since he must know in the future that a free will choice is to be made?
Basically God knows a choice will be made yet chooses to not know it? How would he know a free will choice is going to be made in the first place if He doesn't know what the choice is?
This just proves that open theism has no strong foundation to stand on.
I just want to thank Derek Adams for his support and motivation and we will continue to expose falsehood.
There are different flavours of Open Theists. The ones that thing that God limits his own knowledge of the future and the kind that says that the Future does exist. I am of the latter kind.
ReplyDeleteYour phrase "When the open theist claims that God doesn't know the future he is basically asserting that God is limited to time."
Correct, but the third and second to last words 'limited to' need changing in my opinion to 'lives in'
It is no limitation to be in time. Time is just the sequence of events, this happened, then that happened etc. It is not a thing. You can't go out and buy a box of time.
Regarding your argument of infinite past. Isn't that the same argument that is faced by all Christians - Calvinists too - by Atheists/Agnostics - who ask 'If God created everything and was the cause of everything beign made - Who created God'? (as you go back and back in time).
Obviously we disagree. But I don't think Open Theism is anything to worry about for Christians. Nothing about God's knowledge of the future is in any of the creeds for example.
Bless you
I don't know about the creeds but it's certainly Biblical. (and not saying the Bible doesn't contradict itself here)
ReplyDeleteIt also seems unavoidable, in terms of defining God.
Question for you. If God lives in time, how is he God? How is he any different from us? Isn't this just the same belief as Mormonism and the ancient pagan religions, that God is an alien or superior being confined to time?
Hello Derek,
ReplyDeleteIf you allow me can we unpack your questions.
1/ If God lives in time, how is he God?
It sounds like your assumption is that God is by definition timeless. Hence, your logic is right - how can he be God if he lives in time? However, where did you get your definition from? The Bible nowhere says that God is outside time. It says that he is eternal - but that can be defined as everlasting - which is the idea of going on forever in time. Hence, I disagree with your presumption. Summary: Bible doesn't say that God is outside of time, hence we can't say He is timeless with any assurance.
2/ You second question follows the first 'Isn't this just the same belief as Mormonism and the ancient pagan religions, that God is an alien or superior being confined to time? ' in terms of the assumption. My answer to the first is could be the same for this. I would add though that because things have some similarity doesn't mean in any way they are deriative of each other or any way the same thing. Let me give an example. Islam and Calvinism share the belief in the Meticulous control of God on events. Are they the same thing? No, not at all. There is no relationship.
Now Mormonism has a huge number of wacky ideas on it. It's very much a cult. I am not sure what thing in common you think it has with Open Thesim - but even if it did, similar to the Islam/Calvinism example, that doesn't establish anything. With regard to being the 'same belief' as Mormonism or Pagan religions - Open Theists are completely orthodox in their beliefs. They believe in all the ancient Christian creeds and belief the Bible is authoritive in matters of faith and conduct. No similarity at all with these things.
If you have in your mind so much that God is by definition timeless then any view outside of that must look strange. But examine your view. Does the Bible actually say that God is outside of time?
Being in time is no limitation at all. Being outside though is very limiting. God not being able to have a sense of humour for instance (based on surprise - God can't be surprised according to your definition - even though the Bible says that God is surprised on occasion).
Blessings
Hey Tim,
ReplyDeleteWell I will make sure Nitemere views your comments, since I am not well versed in open theism.
But thanks for sharing what Open Theists actually believe and how they differ from the groups I mentioned.
While I agree the Bible doesn't use the word "timeless", I simply think the two concepts of "creator" (and hence creation) and "eternal" (without beginning or end) would imply "timeless".
What do you think of the specific distinct Hebrew verbs that imply a creation ex nilho,and the other one 'forming/shaping' out of content that already exists?
Another question I would have is if God is not timeless, how is he omnipresent and omniscient?
Finally how do you make sense of the passages where God is invisible, incorporeal and his substance is spirit?
And I certainly agree with your final comment that implies God would be emotionless if he knew all things before they happened, he would have no free will and no emotional reaction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbirUdSnZLU&feature=related
ReplyDeleteNitemere asked me to paste this.
Hello Derek,
ReplyDeleteYour question "if God is not timeless, how is he omnipresent and omniscient?" Open Theists share the same beliefs as other Christians on God's omnipresence. With Regard to Omniscience - they believe that God knows everything that can be known. The difference with other Christians is 'what is in the box of what can be known logically'? Some Open Theists argue that the future can't be known in fixed terms by God or any other being because the future by nature hasn't happened yet. Hence, God knows everything as it is. He knows the past, present and the future (which is largely made up, though not exclusively, of possibilities and He knows them as possibilities). By way of analogy, God can't know the colour of my daughters hair. That is not showing any lack in God's knowledge - precisely for the reason that I don't have a daughter. Similarly God doesn't know the future in fixed terms in advance because the future by definition hasn't happened yet so one can't know it until it has happened. So, in Summary. Open Theists affirm that God is omnipresent and omniscient.
"What do you think of the specific distinct Hebrew verbs that imply a creation ex nilho,and the other one 'forming/shaping' out of content that already exists?" I think that God created ex nilho. No contradiction with Open Theism and historic Christianity there. Are you perhaps confusing Process Theism and Open Theism?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the link. I got a chance to listen to half of it. I like Bill Craig and have listened to his apologetics stuff a fair bit. I found it really interesting what he said here. He is not an Open Theist or a Calvinist for that matter. However, it is interesting that He said that once creation happened that God was in time. I guess none of us have an understanding of what things we like before Creation other than we know God related within the members of the trinity.
ReplyDeleteGood link. I'll finish it off when I can.