Does John 20:28 prove Jesus is identified as God? Yes! Definitively

Years ago, I remember reading an interaction Sam Shamoun had with Bassam Zawadi. Zawadi tried to argue inaccurately that John 20:28 could be interpreted avoiding the implication that Jesus was Lord and God. However Sam Shamoun definitively proved this was a false assertion. The best argument that Shamoun utilized to show such vain attempts by Muslims are grossly mistaken is the following:

"The Greek construction Apekrithe ... kai eipen auto ("answered and said to him") is a common idiom in the New Testament. This idiom always precedes a statement directed to the referent of the dative auto ("to him"). In other words, the statement "answered and said" refers to the referent signified by the indirect object ("to him") which in this context would be Jesus Christ. There is no lexical support in any of the standard Greek references (BAGD, M&M, and Louw & Nida) where this idiom is to be taken as a relative address, as not addressing the object that the pronoun auto points to, but to someone else. There is no grammatical support in any of the standard grammars for claiming that such a construction is to be understood as referring to someone other than the addressee of the indirect object. As one writer and apologist put it: 
…There are 108 occurrences of a form of EIPON followed by AUTW(i) in the NT. 74 are EIPEN AUTW(i). 23 occur with a form of APOKRINOMAI. Ten of these are preceded by APEKRITHE. John uses EIPEN AUTW(i) 17 times. I checked all 108 occurrences. In every case, the words following AUTW(i) were addressed to the referent of AUTW(i). In addition, there are 127 examples of AUTW(i) preceded by a form of LEGW (20 combined with a form of APOKRINOMAI), and in every case I checked (about half), I did not find a single example where the person addressed was OTHER THAN the referent of AUTW(i). (Robert Hommel, Robert and MS on John 20:28online source
To help illustrate Hommel’s point we provide references where the words eipen auto, or their varying forms, are used in John: 
They came to John and said to him (eipan auto), ‘Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him." John 3:26  
"When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him (eipon oun auto), ‘The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour.’ Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him (eipan auto), ‘Your son will live.’ So he and all his household believed." John 4:52-53  
"Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him (eipen auto), ‘See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.’" John 5:14 
"Jesus’ brothers said to him (eipon oun pros auton), ‘You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do.’" John 7:3 
"‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him (eipon oun hoi Ioudaioi pros auton), ‘and you have seen Abraham!’" John 8:57  
"The third time he said to him, ‘Simon son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him (eipen auto) the third time, ‘Do you love me?’ He said, ‘Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.’" John 21:17  
"Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him (eipon legei auto), ‘Follow me!’" John 21:19 
The above references show that eipen auto are addressed to the referent of the pronoun auto. This conclusively proves that Thomas’ confession was directed to Jesus, that John deliberately used the Greek words eipen auto in order to show that Thomas was directly addressing Jesus as his Lord and God. 
Moreover, Jesus wasn’t merely addressing Thomas’ belief that he had been raised. Christ was also addressing Thomas’ confession of faith which he made as a result of Christ appearing alive to him after his death. Jesus was basically saying that those who believe in him as their Lord God and God’s Son without witnessing the resurrection are truly blessed. This is precisely why John the Evangelist went on to write immediately afterwards: 
"Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." John 20:30-31 (source)

Notice therefore that the only way of denying the above is by begging the question (assuming your conclusion to begin with "Jesus cannot be God") and translating and/or interpreting it en-light of a false presupposition. However, linguistically this is impossible, this is known as special pleading and violates the rules of grammar as per every authority on Greek grammar. There is simply no way to escape this conclusion. The Gospel of John teaches that Christ is Lord and God.

Two New Testament Scholars add:

“Thomas’s words echo statements addressed in the Psalms to the Lord (Jehovah), especially: ‘Wake up!’ Bestir yourself for my defense, for my cause, my God and my Lord [ho theos mou kai ho kurios mou]!’ (Ps. 35:23). These words parallel those in John 20:28 exactly except for reversing ‘God’ and ‘Lord’. More broadly, in biblical language ‘my God’ (on the lips of a faithful believer) can refer only to the Lord God of Israel. The language is as definite as it could be and identifies Jesus Christ as God himself.

“In identifying Jesus as God, Thomas, of course, was not identifying him as the Father. Earlier in the same passage, Jesus had referred to the Father as his God. It is interesting to compare Jesus’ wording with the wording of Thomas. Jesus told Mary Magdalene, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and to your God’ (theon mou kai theon humon, John 20:17). As in John 1:1 and John 1:18, the Father is called ‘God’ in close proximity to a statement affirming that Jesus is also ‘God.’ Here again, as in John 1:18, we do not see the apostle John distinguishing between the Father as ‘the God’ (ho theos) and Jesus the Son as only ‘God’ (theos without the article). In fact, whereas Jesus calls the Father ‘my God’ without the article (theon mou, 20:17), Thomas calls Jesus ‘my God’ with the article (ho theos mou, 20:28)! One could not ask for any clearer evidence that the use or nonuse of the article is irrelevant to the meaning of the word theos. What matters is how the word is used in context. In John 20:28, the apostle reports the most skeptical of disciples making the most exalted of confessions about Jesus. John expects his readers to view Thomas’s confession as a model for them to follow. Recognizing Jesus as the One who conquered death itself for us, we too are to respond to Jesus and confess that he is our Lord and our God.”...

“There is essentially no controversy among biblical scholars that in John 20:28 Thomas is referring to and addressing Jesus when he says, ‘My Lord and my God!’ As Harris says in his lengthy study on Jesus as God in the New Testament, ‘This view prevails among grammarians, lexicographers, commentators and English versions.’ Indeed, it is difficult to find any contemporary exegetical commentary or academic study that argues that Thomas’s words in John 20:28 apply in context to the Father rather than to Jesus. The reason is simple: John prefaces what Thomas said with the words, ‘Thomas answered and said to him’ (v. 28a NASB). This seemingly redundant wording reflects a Hebrew idiomatic way of introducing someone’s response to the previous speaker. John uses it especially frequently, always with the speaker’s words directed to the person or persons who have just spoken previously in the narrative (John 1:48, 50; 2:18-19; 3:3, 9-10, 27; 4:10, 13, 17; 5:11; 6:26, 29, 43; 7:16, 21, 52; 8:14, 39, 48; 9:11, 20, 30, 34, 36; 12:30; 13:7; 14:23; 18:30; 20:28). It is therefore certain that Thomas was directing his words to Jesus, not to the Father. No one, of course, would ever have questioned this obvious conclusion if Thomas had said simply ‘My Lord!’ It is the addition of the words ‘and my God’ that have sparked some creative but untenable interpretations of the text.”

“John’s conclusion, at which he wants his readers also to arrive, that Jesus is the Son of God (20:30-31) is not at odds with understanding Thomas’s statement in John 20:28 as a model of confession of Jesus as Lord and God. In the prologue as well, John insists that Jesus is both God (1:1, 18) and the Son of God (1:14, 18). As D. A. Carson has observed, ‘This tension between unqualified statements affirming the full deity of the Word or of the Son, and those which distinguish the Word or the Son from the Father, are typical of the Fourth Gospel from the very first verse.’Those who find these descriptions of Jesus impossible to reconcile without denying or diminishing one in favor of the other are laboring under the assumption or presupposition of a unitarian view of God (i.e., the view that God can only be a solitary person).” (Robert M. Bowman Jr. & J. Ed Komoszewski, Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ [Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, MI 2007], Part 3: Name Above All Names: Jesus Shares the Names of God, 12. Immanuel: God with Us, pp. 142-143)


To make this even more clear New Testament Exegete Rob Bowman in his debate makes several compelling arguments that "God" here cannot be taken to be "god" in a lesser sense:

There is essentially no controversy among biblical scholars about the fact that in John 20:28 Thomas is referring to and addressing Jesus when he says, “My Lord and my God!” The reason is simple: John prefaces what Thomas said with the words, “Thomas answered and said to him” (v. 28a), that is, to Jesus. It is therefore certain that Thomas was directing his words to Jesus, not to the Father. Of course, no one would ever have questioned this obvious conclusion if Thomas had said simply “My Lord!” It is the addition of the words “and my God” that have sparked some creative but untenable interpretations of the text, such as Margaret Davies’s tortured explanation that “my God” referred to the Father while “my Lord” referred to the Son (Rhetoric and Reference in the Fourth Gospel[1992], 125-26). 
The Biblical Unitarian website’s explanation is no more plausible. It asserts that the term “God” (theos) “was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities” and that “it was used of someone with divine authority.” The article makes no attempt to demonstrate exegetically that such a weaker sense fits the context. Thomas’s words echo statements addressed in the Psalms to God, especially the following: “Wake up! Bestir yourself for my defense, for my cause, my God and my Lord!” (Ps. 35:23; cf. 5:2; 84:3). These words parallel those in John 20:28 exactly except for reversing “God” and “Lord.” More broadly, in biblical language “my God” can only refer (on the lips of a faithful believer) to the Lord God of Israel. The language is as definite as it could be and identifies Jesus Christ as God himself... 
It is quite true that in ancient Jewish literature generally theos could apply in various contexts to creatures. However, biblical examples of the singular theos (as distinguished from plural references to theoi which by definition could not be misunderstood as references to YHWH) applied in an approving way to a creature are rare and arguably nonexistent in the Bible. 
Even more to the point in John 20:28, there are no examples where “my God” applies approvingly in biblical literature (or even extrabiblical Jewish literature, to my knowledge) to anyone other than the true God YHWH, unless you count Jesus himself as the one exception. The expression “my God” (theos mou) occurs about 148 times in the Greek Bible (including the Apocrypha) and not one of those occurrences refers to a created being (whether human or angelic) except for a couple of verses where a prophet mocks the pagan who worships an idol as “my god” (Is. 44:17; Hab. 1:11). If we expand (as we should) our search to all uses of the singular noun theos with personal pronouns (my, your, his, her, our, their), we find about 1,135 occurrences, and not one occurrence refers approvingly to anyone or anything other than the LORD God. (There are about 14 occurrences of “my god,” “his god,” “your god,” etc., all in reference to patently false gods or idols.) If you want to look for such expressions using the plural “gods” (theoi) I believe you will find that all such expressions (“our gods,” “their gods,” etc.) refer to false gods or idols. (I did a quick check and there are perhaps 50 or so such occurrences.) 
This is rather overwhelming evidence in support of the point I made in my second-round statement here that when a faithful Jew called someone “my God” he was uniformly referring to the true God who was the Creator and Lord of all things. You cannot negate this evidence by referring to passages referring to angels or judges collectively as “gods” or to noncanonical works that call a figure such as Melchizedek “god.” 
Ironically, in denying that Thomas was identifying Jesus as the one true God, you are really negating a core confessional point of the Shema, which is that the people of Israel confessed that YHWH alone was their God: “The LORD our God [ho theos hēmōn], the LORD is one” (Deut. 6:4). Thomas uses this language with the singular pronoun “my” instead of “our” in referring to Jesus as “my God.” 
You asked, “Did you provide evidence Thomas is using either ‘God’ or ‘Lord’ from Psalm 35:23, as claimed?” I did not claim that Thomas was consciously citing Psalm 35:23 specifically. My point was that Thomas used language that clearly echoes Psalm 35:23, whether deliberately or not. It doesn’t really matter, because we have over a thousand OT texts in which biblical writers and speakers referred to the LORD as “my God,” “our God,” “your God,” and so forth, and never approvingly applied such language to anyone or anything else. But the allusion to Psalm 35:23 is more likely than not. As I pointed out, the whole statement of Thomas directly parallels Psalm 35:23, as follows: 
ho theos mou kai ho kurios mou (Ps. 35:23 [34:23 LXX] 
ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou (John 20:28) 
In addition, there is something highly suggestive in Psalm 35:23 that appears to confirm the allusion. The Psalmist who is addressing “my God and my Lord” asks him to “be raised up” (exegerthēti, aorist passive imperative): 
“Be raised up, Lord, and attend to my case, my God and my Lord!” 
And of course, in the context of Thomas’s cry, he has just realized that Jesus Christ was indeed “raised up” from the dead! So perhaps the allusion was intentional. In any case, the uniform usage of “my (his, your, our, their) God” to refer exclusively to Israel’s God YHWH makes it explicit that Thomas’s words “my God” also identify Jesus as the LORD God. 
You wrote: “Thomas knew the Messianic use of ‘kyrios’ (Psalm 110) and the OT Jewish use of ‘theos’ (Psalm 82:6) so where is the evidence for his departure from customary usage?” I have just answered that question, rather exhaustively. Neither Psalm 82:6 nor any other biblical text (nor any other Jewish text, to my knowledge) ever refers to a creature as “my God.” And you have provided no exegetical evidence whatsoever that either Psalm 82:6 or 110:1 is the textual background for John 20:28. Certainly you have offered nothing even remotely comparable to the apparent allusion to Psalm 35:23! (source)

The following quotes from scholars supplement all of these arguments:

Another interpretation, associated with the names of Theodore of Mopsuestia and Faustus Socinus, proposes that Thomas's cry was an exclamatory statement, expressing his astonishment and his praise to God for the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus: "Praise (or, glory) be to my Lord and my God!" Accordingly, ho theos mou sheds no light on the view of Jesus held by either Thomas or the evangelist. 
Insuperable objections attend this Socinian interpretation. (1) It renders the preceding (apekrithe ... kai eipen) auto (= Jesus) inexplicable (cf. Bauer 227). Why would John (or Thomas) introduce an indirect expression of praise to the Father by a phrase that directs the ex hypothesi praise to Jesus? The least he might have expressed in this case would be something like eipen auto Eulogetos ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou (cf. Ps. 17:47 LXX [Engl. 18:47]; 143:1 LXX [Engl. 144]); eipen auto, Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou touto epoiesen (cf. Matt. 13:28); or eipen auto, Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou, hos megale he dunamis sou (cf. Rom. 11:33). (2) It is clear from the me after heorakas in verse 29a and the parallelism between pisteusantes in verse 29b (where eis eme must be inferred) and pepisteukas in verse 29a that eis eme (or a phrase of similar import) is to be supplied with pepisteukas. Verse 28 is therefore most naturally understood as an expression of Thomas's belief in the risen Jesus as his Lord and God. (3) All the previous uses of ho kurios in John 20 (viz., vv. 2, 13, 18, 20, 25; cf. v. 15) refer to Jesus. In the literary artistry of the chapter, there seems to be a marked progress in meaning (but not in referent) from Mary Magdalene's ho kurios mou (v. 13) to Thomas's ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou (cf. v. 17). (4) The preceding and following verses emphasize the relationship of Thomas to Jesus: legei to Thoma (v. 27), legei auto ho 'Iesous (v. 29). It would be unlikely that the oratio recta that follows the intervening apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto (v. 28) would not be directed to Jesus. (Harris, Jesus As God: The New Testament Use of "Theos" in Reference to Jesus [Baker Academic, A Division of Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI, July 1998 Paperback], pp. 108-109)
And:
Thou shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain,.... Make use of the name Lord or God, or any other name and epithet of the divine Being, in a light and trifling way, without any show of reverence of him, and affection to him; whereas the name of God ought never to be mentioned but in a grave and serious manner, and with an awe of the greatness of his majesty upon the mind. The Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan restrain this to swearing by the name of the Lord; and so the Jewish writers generally interpret it either of swearing lightly, rashly, or falsely; and to this it may very well be extended, though not limited; and so forbids, as all profane oaths; imprecations, and curses by the name of God, which the mouths of wicked men are full of, so swearing by it in matters trivial, and of no importance; for swearing even by the name of the Lord ought not to be used but in matters of moment and consequence, for the confirmation of a thing, and putting an end to strife, and where a matter cannot be determined and decided without an appeal to God. And great care should be taken that a man swears to that which is true, and not false; for false swearing, or perjury, is a very grievous sin, and as it is strictly forbidden, it is severely punished by the Lord, as follows; see Leviticus 19:12, this is the third command, and the reason enforcing it follows: 
for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name is vain; will not look upon him as an innocent person, and treat him as such; will not acquit and discharge him as just and righteous; but on the contrary will consider him as a guilty person, a profaner of his name, and a transgressor of his law, and will condemn and punish him, if not in this world, yet in the world to come; and so the Targum of Jonathan, by way of explanation, adds, "in the day of the great judgment;" see Malachi 3:5. (John Gill's Exposition of the Bible, Commentary on Exodus 20:7)
And:
My Lord and my God (Ho kurioß mou kai o qeoß mou). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koin‚. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing. (Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament; Online source
And:
#17. John 20:28: On the Sunday evening one week after Easter Jesus appears to Thomas and the other disciples, causing Thomas to confess HIM as "My Lord and my God." This is the clearest example in the NT of the use of "God" for Jesus. HERE JESUS IS ADDRESSED AS "GOD" (a nominative form with definite article, which functions as a vocative). The scene is designed to serve as a climax to the Gospel: As the resurrected Jesus stands before the disciples, one of their number at last gives expression to an adequate faith in Jesus. He does this by applying to Jesus the Greek (Septuagint) equivalent of two terms applied to the God of the OT (kyrios, "Lord," rendering YHWH; and theos, "God," rendering 'Elohim). The best example of the OT usage is in Ps. 35:23, where the psalmist cries out: "My God and my Lord." It may well be that the Christian use of such a confessional formula was catalyzed by the Roman empror Domitian's claim to the title "Lord and God" (dominus et deus noster). (Brown, Introduction to New Testament Christology [Paulist Press; Mahwah, NJ 1994], pp. 188-189
And:
Verse 28. My Lord and my God. In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons: 
1st. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment. 
2nd. The language was addressed to Jesus himself-- "Thomas-- said UNTO HIM." 
3rd. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Comp. Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8,9. 
4th. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God. 
5th. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and GOD, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel. (Barnes' Notes on the New Testamentonline source)
 The NET Bible translators note that:
52sn Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted ("My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead"), as predicate nominatives ("You are my Lord and my God"), or as vocatives ("My Lord and my God!")? Probably the most likely is something between the second and third alternatives. It seems that the second is slightly more likely here, because the context appears confessional. Thomas’ statement, while it may have been an exclamation, does in fact confess the faith which he had previously lacked, and Jesus responds to Thomas’ statement in the following verse as if it were a confession. With the proclamation by Thomas here, it is difficult to see how any more profound analysis of Jesus’ person could be given. It echoes 1:1 and 1:14 together: The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus of Nazareth). The Fourth Gospel opened with many other titles for Jesus: the Lamb of God (1:29, 36); the Son of God (1:34, 49); Rabbi (1:38); Messiah (1:41); the King of Israel (1:49); the Son of Man (1:51). Now the climax is reached with the proclamation by Thomas, "My Lord and my God," and the reader has come full circle from 1:1, where the author had introduced him to who Jesus was, to 20:28, where the last of the disciples has come to the full realization of who Jesus was. What Jesus had predicted in John 8:28 had come to pass: "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he" (Grk "I am"). By being lifted up in crucifixion (which led in turn to his death, resurrection, and exaltation with the Father) Jesus has revealed his true identity as both Lord (?????? [kurios], used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (?e?? [qeos], used by the LXX to translate Elohim (Source)

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Debate challenge

This is a debate challenge directed to Keith Thompson and a Paltalk member that goes by the name Answering Judaism. We challenge you guys to a debate on Paltalk and the topic will be is universalism biblical.  It will be a two on two debate, we will give you guys 3 days to respond to this challenge.

Does the Bible teach Universalism? Dr. Chris Claus vs Dk

Does the Bible teach Universalism? 


Is Universalism Biblical?

This is a Christian vs Christian debate.

I am a Christian Trinitarian Universalist. This is a debate I had with my friend Dr Chris Claus on whether Universalism (the doctrine that through Christ alone, not merely some but all souls he died for will be reconciled to God) is Biblical. Let me know your thoughts on the debate.



Some After Thoughts


While the overwhelming majority feedback about the debate was that it was informative and we had two great speakers representing their perspectives, there are those who disagree. The blogger who made this debate available (known as Bobo557 or Answering Judaism) and his colleague Keith Thompson made the following comments about the debate and myself:


What baffles me is that Bobo asserts no Christians have called me out to repent of the heresy of Universalism, yet Bobo577 has never personally told me to repent of Universalism, only Chris Claus took up this debate. Rather in the past Bobo has tried to debunk my Biblical case for Universalism on his YouTube channel and on his blog, attempting to make corrections. He has never contacted me personally or publicly told me to repent. What is even more bizarre is that I have challenged Bobo at-least twice in Sam Shamoun's chat forum to have a public debate on whether Universalism is Biblical (this can be confirmed by Jaihabor). However both invitations were ignored by Bobo. However, Dr. Chris Claus at-least took up the challenge and tried to expose me publicly, hence Bobo himself fails his own criterion and fails to realize that Chris Claus is a Christian who fulfills his criterion. Hence not only has Bobo not publicly debated me, he has never called me to repent in private or in public. I will issue the challenge again to Bobo to debate this topic whether in written or audio format. If he is more comfortable with written format, I have no problem dissecting his responses and making it a formal written exchange.

Keith Thompson asserts God is angry with me, yet I have no idea how he would claim to know this apart from divine revelation, and the Bible no where condemns Universalism (one could argue contradicts, but there is no condemnation), nor is Keith a prophet. Presumably he thinks I am invading the Church and spreading a false heresy, but it not made clear how Trinitarian Universalism is a heresy, unless he is appealing to a late council of which he himself would not accept in totality, nor are either of us obligated to accept all Church councils, so this is neither here nor there.

Thompson who quite clearly dislikes me, seems to give the implicit admission that I won this debate since in his final comment he says Chris Claus was ill-equip to handle the Biblical case for the Universalist position since Chris avoided exegeting the passages I had submitted. However while he thinks that Chris failed to address these passages, he himself gives no explanation, or challenge to debate such texts, so presumably Thompson himself doesn't think he can win against me or refute my Biblical case for Universalism.

UPDATE: Bobo's Blunders



Notice that Bobo has said Universalism is a heresy, yet I was not present in the room, when he made these assertions. Nor has Bobo publicly or privately ever said to me: "Dk you need to repent from Universalism" but only tried to show the Bible contradicts the position. Finally I have never taught Universalism in the Jesus or Mohamed room, I have debated Universalism with Chris Claus, but the goal of the room is not Christian/Christian debate. In fact the only time Universalism has ever come up even in other rooms is when it is being contested, not taught. Further more Bobo has never specified whether Universalism is a damnable heresy (putting one outside the faith) or whether it is merely a heresy in the sense of religious error. Now since Bobo thinks Calvinism is heresy in the latter sense (as in it's not biblical and contains some error), but not the former sense (damnable doctrine). But if he thinks Universalism is not a damnable heresy then why is he now calling me to repent, but not Keith Thompson? And why hasn't Bobo explained any of this to me if he is calling me to repent?

UPDATE II: Bobo's Big Mistakes


After Bobo complained about no Christian calling me to repent, Bobo has now (ironically) conceded he himself was one of these Christians:

"Looking back, I should have given you an exhortation to repent in the article."
And:
"Ps. I should have said to Dk man to repent publicly and for failing that I apologise."

Bobo also claims that he specified on his blog that Universalism was a damnable heresy:

Universalism IS a damnable heresy in light of what I have written in my papers on it. This is what I said in a previous paper: 
"If Universalism is true, Then we can happily embrace it and those who teach such, but if it can be shown that Universalism is in fact false and that the scriptures teach to the contrary, then those who teach it are teaching a doctrine of demons and those who believe in the heresy of universalism need to repent and shun it. The apostles gave us numerous warnings NOT to fellowship with false teachers and that doing so means partaking of their evil deeds."

So much for claiming I never specified.

Bobo needs to learn to read carefully since in context I wasn't referring to him saying this any where at any stage, rather in the overall context I claimed he didn't inform me:

"Further more Bobo has never specified whether Universalism is a damnable heresy (putting one outside the faith) or whether it is merely a heresy in the sense of religious error. Now since Bobo thinks Calvinism is heresy in the latter sense (as in it's not biblical and contains some error), but not the former sense (damnable doctrine). But if he thinks Universalism is not a damnable heresy then why is he now calling ME to repent, but not Keith Thompson? And why hasn't Bobo explained any of this TO ME if he is calling ME to repent?" 

Hence Bobo failed on two counts. He failed to call me to repentance (while complaining about others for doing the same thing), but further more he failed to inform me the serious nature of my heresy. And obviously I can't be expected to read Bobo's blog and posts unless he informs me they are directed to me or even that he has written such posts!

But what is even more thought provoking is that the very definition that Bobo provided to assert Universalism must be judged as a damnable heresy, actually matches Calvinism aswell. Just substitute the word Universalism for Calvinism:

""If Calvinism is true, Then we can happily embrace it and those who teach such, but if it can be shown that Universalism is in fact false and that the scriptures teach to the contrary, then those who teach it are teaching a doctrine of demons and those who believe in the heresy of calvinism need to repent and shun it. The apostles gave us numerous warnings NOT to fellowship with false teachers and that doing so means partaking of their evil deeds."

The only criterion Bobo specifies is that something is in fact false if it is contrary to Scripture, then it's demonic. Well, Bobo, is Calvinism contrary to Scripture or not? According to Bobo it is, hence it's a doctrine of demons. 

But what is rather baffling is that Bobo then asserts Calvinism which he thinks is contrary to Scripture is not actually a damnable heresy!

"Second, Calvinism and Arminianism are not a salvation issue. I don't use the word heresy lightly, I NEVER even use the word when referring to a non damnable error. Despite disagreements with Keith, I don't believe it is heresy. Keith is my brother in Christ despite our differences. Calvinism and Arminianism are not an issue of salvation. Universalism on the other hand, IS an issue of salvation and one who holds to it is outside the faith."

But in the very same breathe Bobo again affirms anything that contradicts the Bible is a false gospel and demonic:

"Addendum: If Universalism contradicts the Bible, it is false, period, ergo, condemned as false teaching and a false gospel."

That's twice! Does limited atonement contradict the Scriptures or not? Does unconditional election contradict the Scriptures or not?

Truly incompetent double standards from a person who has a chip on their shoulder rather than a heart for God's word and his truth. Bobo has no actual explanation as to why one is heresy and one is not other than his own cognitive bias.

The sense in which I affirm that Arminians and Calvinists abide by heresy is in the lesser known sense of religious error. Bobo should take a page from Reverend Matthew Slick:

"Is it possible for a Christian to be a universalist? Some say no. Others say yes. My position is that it is possible for a Christian to be a universalist--note, I said "possible." However, to be clear, I believe universalism to be a heresy, and I would never say, "All universalists are Christians."
Not all forms of universalism are the same though all are in error. Christian universalism teaches that Jesus is the only way, all will be saved, and salvation occurs quickly after death for those who have not become Christians in this life. This view erringly states that salvation can occur after dying. I find nothing in Scripture that requires believing in eternal damnation in order to be a true Christian. And it is only for this reason that I do say that Christian universalism does not "make one unsaved."" (CARM)

Unlike Bobo, Matt Slick actually gives good justification for why some Universalists cannot be excluded from the Christian faith. As a Trinitarian Universalist, I accept all known orthodox doctrines that are essential and compatible with salvation. Can Bobo show a single passage that says belief in eternal conscious torment is a prerequisite for salvation? If he can't but he insists you can only be saved if you accept all Biblical truth, and nothing that contradicts the Bible, then why are Calvinists "saved" and Universalists "unsaved"?

Finally Matt Slick seals the deal:

"Ignorance 
Nevertheless, let's say that there is a man who was not a Christian who believes that everyone will be saved. This man is on his death bed in a hospital and is visited by the hospital Chaplain. The Chaplain gives him the gospel about Jesus being God in flesh, dying for our sins, rising from the dead, the need for repentance from sin, trusting in Christ, etc. The man honestly receives Christ and then dies shortly thereafter, yet he never repented of the error of universalism. Is he saved or should we say that even though he trusted Jesus as his Savior--believed Jesus is God in flesh and that Christ died for his sins and rose from the dead--and the man fully received Christ but because he also believed everyone will be saved, he is then going to Hell? Would anyone condemn a person to eternal fire for simply believing that everyone will be saved? I cannot see that as being the case. 
There are essentials of the Christian faith. 
I have developed a "doctrine grid" where I have tried to arrange essential and non-essential doctrines into an easily understandable system. The essential doctrines are essential because the Bible says they are. Let me give you two examples. In John 8:24 Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." This is an essential doctrine because it has a penalty of damnation for denying it. Likewise 1 Cor. 15:14 says that "if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain." Here, too, we see an essential doctrine because there is a condition of condemnation upon its denial. So, too, with the other essentials (justification by faith, monotheism, and the gospel) that the Scripture declare to be essential. See my doctrine grid again. 
Though I consider universalism to be a false belief, I cannot automatically pronounce condemnation upon a person who acknowledges the essentials of the Christian faith and also affirms universal salvation. I don't because I don't see the Scriptures doing it. Would I consider someone who holds to both the essentials and universalism to be inconsistent and confused? Absolutely! Should they repent? Yes! Does it mean he is unsaved? I can't say that it does."
And finally:

"Issues to Consider 
There are essential and non-essential doctrines (see doctrine grid). Denial of the essentials negates salvation. Denial of non-essentials does not. If a professing Christian also believes in universalism means that he is not saved, then it must mean that the person has denied an essential doctrine. Where then are the Scriptures that state belief in eternal damnation is within the essentials of the Christian faith. 
If believing in universalism automatically disqualifies a person from being a Christian, then please specify the logic (with Scripture) used to make such a pronouncement. 
If you say that it is because they deny the eternal punishment of God, then please demonstrate how such a denial means a person is automatically not saved."

UPDATE III: Bobo Baffling Standards



Bobo added an Addendum 3, however I don't see any answers to either myself or Matt Slick, but rather insistent begging the question (assuming one is disputable and one is false teaching without any actual reason). I wasn't even sure in the point of a non-response response?

Bobo asserts:

"My point in context of the paper is referring to Universalism. I am saying contradicts the Bible, it is a doctrine of demons. That is not the same as something which is a disputable matter such as Calvinism and Arminianism. My statement about Universalism was addressing universalism in the paper.The statement from me in context could be applied to false teaching but not disputable matters."

In context you are referring to Universalism, however I am extracting the criterion you use to judge Universalism. The very standard you use to reckon Universalism as a demonic-non-Christian heresy. The only criterion you give to show that universalism is unbiblical was that it is a doctrine contrary to scripture and/or that it contradicts Scripture. However this is as equally as applicable to Calvinism since according to you Calvinism is contrary to the Scripture, yet you say one is a heresy but not the other. It's time to be consistent, or stop writing "responses" that don't address the substance of the issue.

My question remains unanswered:

"The only criterion Bobo specifies is that something is in fact false if it is contrary to Scripture, then it's demonic. Well, Bobo, is Calvinism contrary to Scripture or not? According to Bobo it is, hence it's a doctrine of demons."

Again Bobo, shows us his standard is that if a doctrine contradicts scripture it is condemned (damnable heresy):

"That was the context of my addendum. it was pointing out that if one argues that universalism contradicts scripture, it results in condemnation.

Again, no one questions you were referring to if Universalism contradicts Scripture then it results in condemnation. Yet Bobo's double standards are glaring, if Calvinism contradicts Scripture it does not result in condemnation, yet if Universalism contradicts Scripture it does result in condemnation? Based on what? Where did you get this from? Stop saying that a doctrine contradicting Scripture is your criterion to determine heresy, because it's not! If Universalism contradicts the Bible clearly that does not make it a heresy, since you can't say the same about Calvinism, you need to find consistent standards. Does Calvinism contradict Scripture or not? If so it results in condemnation and you should be calling Keith Thompson to repent. Simply asserting one is a disputable matter of faith and one is not is begging the question. But not only do you relentlessly beg the question, you fail to address the positive case from Matt Slick.

Bobo again collapses:

"Sorry, but I don't share what Matt has said regarding Universalists. I have always seen it as a heresy. No where (And I have written papers on this) does the Bible tell us that all men are saved by Christ. Both scripture and early church fathers I quote don't open that door."
Why couldn't I just say something virtually identical about Bobo?

"Sorry, but I don't share what Bobo has said regarding Keith Thompson (and other calvinists). I have always seen it as a heresy. No where (And I have written papers on this) does the Bible tell us that Christ died only for some. Both scripture and early church fathers I quote don't open that door."

Again your statements can all be applied to the position of Calvinism, please stop publicly exposing your double standards, and repent and admit you are in error. Either both Calvinism and Universalism are disputable matters of faith, or they are both outside the fold, make up your mind or present a positive case for one being a damnable heresy and one being a disputable matter of faith. All the standards you have employed show that if we measure Universalism by this criterion, Calvinism must fall aswell.

UPDATE IIII Bobo Blasted


Bobo says "well Calvinisim is not on trial, Universalism is". No Bobo, what is on trial is your consistency, if something contradicts or is contrary to the Scripture then it is damanable heresy (per you). You cannot selectively cherry pick one doctrine and not another. Either your standards are consistent or they are inconsistent, and yours are truly inconsistent, so inconsistent, that you have abandoned your own criterion selectively. If you are not capable of being consistent, you are not capable of being honest, which means a debate about Biblical Universalism with you would be obsolete. First you must demonstrate you are prepared to let go of your ego, and admit when you are in error. Simply declaring something is a disputable matter of faith and something is not is arbitrary and irrelevant to me. I am looking for a positive case, not a faith based blind assertion. Matt Slick gave a compelling case for why Universalism (while in error; he thinks) is not salvific issue, you did not, you merely begged the question. First show your commitment to truth, consistency and honesty before you debate Universalism, or are you incapable of such?